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Author Topic:   Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 44 of 172 (305033)
04-18-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
04-18-2006 6:15 AM


Matthew again!
From Matthew Chapter 25 come the following unequivocal instructions.
31 But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.
32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand,'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in.
36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink?
38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'
40 "The King will answer them,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand,'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you didn't give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'
44 "Then they will also answer, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?'
45 "Then he will answer them, saying,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.'
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
This seems to teach in direct opposition to the idea of salvation by faith alone, but teaches clearly that salvation will be determined by what you do, how you act, what deeds you do.
Given this passage which claims to be the direct teaching of Jesus, I find it ludicrous that a Christian can claim that faith alone brings salvation. Why would any Christian disregard the words of Jesus Christ? I find it much more logical for a Christian to consider that Jesus was telling the truth when He gave us these instructions and was telling us that our deeds matter very much.
If God gives us faith and we have no say in whether we have faith or not, then that means that each and every individual has their life's path predestined by God. Where's the free will in that? It means that if you are one of the special ones to be given faith, it's easy to be saved - you don't have to do a thing. I thought the road to salvation was a difficult one and many fell by the wayside? they'd hardly be falling by the wayside if they weren't on the journey in the first place.
Iano, your idea of salvation by faith alone makes a mockery of much of the Bible and most of the teachings of Jesus. Why bother giving Moses the commandments? What was the point of the Beatitudes? Or is this a case of not letting God get in the way of a good bit of comforting dogma? "I can do whatever I want to, I can hurt whoever I want to, I can sin as much as I like as long as I have faith that Jesus is the Son of God, was crucified, died and rose after three days in the tomb".
You said
One may say one tries to do so to the best of their ability but that appears to be leave open the possibility for any level of trying - surely if one fails then one has, per definition, tried as hard as one can at that moment yet failed.
Let me tell you a story. My son ran the nursery marathon when he was four - it was one lap of the track. He was up against five year olds. He's a fast runner, but only over short distances because his feet get very sore.
Half way round the track, the kiddie just in front of him fell over. My son desperately wanted to win, but he stopped, helped the kiddie up and off they went running again. He ran his little heart out and was limping by the end. He came last by a long way.
As a loving mother I yelled myself hoarse as he crossed the line and by that time the prizes were already being given, he took so long. He was very upset at coming last and crying. I ran to him, tears running down my face and squeezed him in a huge hug. He thought I was upset that he had failed to win the race so I explained that I was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO proud of him. He stopped and put himself at a disadvantage to help another, even though he was already hindered by his feet and even though he wanted to win so desperately.
Even when he was obviously last, his little legs kept going like the clappers, wanting to make his parents proud, wanting to win a prize. What sort of parents would we have been if we'd said to him "Nope, we're not proud because you failed to win"?
What sort of parent would hold their child back at the starting line so they couldn't even take part in the race, then set them on fire for not winning? Sheesh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 6:15 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 8:21 PM Trixie has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 68 of 172 (305308)
04-19-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by iano
04-18-2006 8:21 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
Iano, you've missed the point entirely. When we pray we say
Our Father, who art in Heaven
Do you notice that? OUR Father. I'm thinking of God OUR Father, OUR Heavenly Father. That makes us His children. All of humanity.
If God "chooses" who has faith and who doesn't and faith alone is His criterion for giving salvation to people, then God is actively choosing who doesn't get salvation. That means that those without God-given faith aren't even in the race and the decision that they aren't in the race is God's!! It's in that context that I asked
What sort of parent would hold their child back at the starting line so they couldn't even take part in the race, then set them on fire for not winning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 8:21 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 6:23 PM Trixie has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 78 of 172 (305348)
04-19-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by iano
04-19-2006 6:23 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
Iano, you say
We can only accept the apparently contradictory things his word says in one way. By faith: he says it, I can't resolve it, I believe it. Why? Because he says so. Faith in him. There is no other way to reconcile such things...
(My bold)
So why do you choose to disbelieve Him when He says
31 But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.
32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand,'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in.
36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink?
38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'
40 "The King will answer them,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand,'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you didn't give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'
44 "Then they will also answer, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?'
45 "Then he will answer them, saying,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.'
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
As Ringo has already pointed out, the word "all" in "all nations" includes "all", unless you think Jesus got it wrong again.
Now to Our Father. If you check out the passage just before the Lord's Prayer you'll find this little nugget in Matthew 6
"Be careful that you don't do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
2 Therefore when you do merciful deeds, don't sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward.
3 But when you do merciful deeds, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does,
4 so that your merciful deeds may be in secret, then your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
5 "When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most certainly, I tell you, they have received their reward.
6 But you, when you pray, enter into your inner chamber, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
7 In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking.
8 Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him.
9 Pray like this:'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
13 Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.'
The "them" that we are encouraged not to pray like are the hypocrites who make a great show of their faith and prayer in public, nothng to do with them being non-Christians, or non-believers. Also you'll note the references to doing merciful deeds.
From Luke 10
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"
27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
28 He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"
30 Jesus answered, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion,
34 came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him,'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.'
36 Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?"
37 He said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."
Note the last four words. It doesn't say "Go and think likewise", it tells us to do likewise. We are to show mercy to others, regardless of race, colour or creed and to show mercy you have to do things, whether it be to help, feed, clothe or comfort and this brings us neatly back to Matthew 25.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 6:23 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 8:28 PM Trixie has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 85 of 172 (305370)
04-19-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
04-19-2006 8:28 PM


Re: Love thine enemy..
Iano, I'm well aware of the relationship between Jews and Samaritans at the time of the parable. Can't you just for once credit someone who disagrees with you with a modicum of intelligence? Must you be so patronising and obnoxious?
I'm ignoring your insulting sectarian bigotry analogy since it deserves neither the time nor the energy to reply to your slurs.
As to your differentiation between a causal and consequential interpretation of Matthew 25, stop gazing at your navel and just read the words. Those who think they are righteous are in for a shock, according to Matthew 25. They think they're righteous because they have faith, yet not a single good work did they do. What do you think Jesus was trying to say? Or do you think he was just burbling aimlessly to fill up a pause in the conversation?
You say
He exhorts us to do as he says
What part of "do" do you not understand?
What happens if you don't "do" as He says. What if you just sit back and do nothing, but you have faith in him? It means that you don't "do" as He says. Where does that leave you? Faith alone isn't enough, according to your very own words. Incase you've forgotten them, here they are again
He exhorts us to do as he says
Note the fifth word from the left, or even the fourth word from the right, the one which comes between "to" and "as". It starts with a "D", it finishes with an "O" and there are no letters in between. it appears in the following sentence
He exhorts us to do as he says
,
a quote from a chap called iano on this board, you might have come across him. However, you probably don't agree with much of what he says since he believes that faith alone is the cause of salvation and he would never claim of Jesus that
He exhorts us to do as he says
since claiming that would invalidate his whole "Salvation through faith alone" argument.
Edited for typo
This message has been edited by Trixie, 04-19-2006 09:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 8:28 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 9:13 PM Trixie has not replied

  
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