Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?

We cannot earn salvation...Jesus accomplished that by becoming the most perfect sacrifice - the Lamb of God (notice the echos of the passover in Exodus - a male, unblemished Lamb - the fulfillment of the Old Testament). As such, salvation is made possible, but since we still have free will we can accept or reject it.Further as Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." Mt 7:21.This just explains that faith alone is not enough. Not everyone who calls upon the Lord shall be saved, but they must also do the will of the Heavenly Father. What is this will? "When I was hungry, you gave me food, when I was thirsty you gave me drink." Sound familiar? Hyppocrites (those who profess faith, but do not live it) are not much better off than those who don't believe in the first place (granted they have an advantage, but they don't have it all).No matter how much logic and reasoning and evidence anyone presents here, no one will understand without prayer. I'm serious here. Pray to God and ask Him to reveal His answer. If you ask earnestly and steadfastly, He shall find a way to let you konw. I've seen it happen.This message has been edited by smak_84, 04-22-2006 11:19 AM

I'm afraid I do not understand what "OP" means.Faith and works are not the same thing. You can have faith in Jesus Christ. If you live that faith you will do the will of the Father (notice, not just a posession of faith, but an execution of it -- action!). However, people can understand the teachings of Jesus and have faith that they are true, but if they don't do anything with it (but they run from a truth they understand to be true and know it's true) then they're in trouble (I say the guys who know are better off, because they're at least headed in the right direction. They guys who don't know anything at all are missing out (not necessarily condemned to hell, but missing out on the graces that Christ can pour out onto them).

Your notion of purgatory is incorrect. It's actually inconclusive if purgatory is a place or a state of being, or both. You also seem to imply that the Pope is the guy responsible for all of this, which is also an errornous assumption (he is standing on 2000 years of theological research).Further you state that the Lord is "not willing that any should perish." First of all, check the Greek before you hinge on the word will. The same word could be translated "wish" (not necessarily the exercise of volition) Further Jesus' parable concerning Lazerus seems to quite acknowledge the fact that men can and do go to Hell.And also, finish reading the rest of 2 Peter (and read the beginning of Chapter 3). Why the heck is the author even worried about his readers being without spot or blemish (it seems to imply that blemish is possible). Secondly, what is the destruction of the "godless" referring to in verse 7?Also the thief theme that the author uses here has been used in one of Jesus' parables. It seems that this implies people cannot be ready and might be condmned. For God is a loving God, but a just God as well.If you think everyone is saved by default, why don't I just go hire some strippers, go kill all the people I am angray at, and steal everyone's things? Will I still go to Heaven if I do these things (but I know I'm "saved" by faith so I can get away with it all!)?

As far as the opening post is concerned. Our judgement is a case by case basis. It is possible that an unbaptized (that is by water) could enter the kingdom of Heaven. For, if through no fault of his own he does not know God, but He lives a worthly life, why ought be be condemned (in this case if Jesus had been made know to Him he would've accepted, but never had the opportunity)? This is known as a baptism of desire - for God allowed us sacraments by which to invoke Him, but he's not limited by these. However, this doesn't mean we can be lazy and not baptize as he directed at the end of the Gospels.Further, however, if there are persons who have the ability to be baptized and hear God's call to them, but they outright reject it and live according to their own desires, but not the wishes of God...these guys are in trouble.Further the Mt 25 (I assume you mean vs 31-46) refers to the fact that they LIVED OUT their faith. The posession of faith alone will not necessarily result in good works (um, there hypocrites and cowards). There must be an ongoing submission to God's will. You can know and understand what the truth is, but you can run from it as well (all the while knowing that it is the truth).In a response to your quotes, you're divorcing parts of the Bible from other parts. You have to look a the Bible in its entire context. Otherwise it might seem to apparently contradict itself. "Calling upon the Lord" has also been interperted as praying to Him and asking for His help. Just because we believe, doesn't mean heaven's a sure thing (it's a good start, but you must clothe the naked, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, et cetera).

I have to agree with GDR here. What you will be judged on is what you've been given.Worthy - a life that God deems acceptable. There isn't necessarily a set amount of "good" that you have to do (um, this is a case by case judgement, remember?) God looks at your life and judges it (he's not a statistical analysist, He's a Divine Judge. Just live out the faith as it is supposed to be lived out an you don't have to worry about getting x hours of good works (a numerical concept here is abusrd).As far as Matthew is concerned. The their situation is dependant on how they lived their lives not what knowledge they posessed or believed in.Further iano, define "faith" because I think we're disagreeing what the term means. Faith is the deposit of teachings and practices that come from Christ's teachings (and the supernatural ability to believe them). "Works" is applying these teachings to life.Besides, where do you get the notion that faith alone saves? Who told you that? Who has the right to authoratively teach in Christ's name (not just sharing the Gospel, but interperting it correctly - there apparently was a source in Acts - the Apostles, Paul, and those appointed by them).Also, check these out:The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.This message has been edited by smak_84, 04-22-2006 04:36 PM

I agree...there's a line somewhere.But I don't think it's necessarily measured in microseconds as has been thrown about in the thread.And which scripture references don't refer to works in references to salvation?And please define faith and works so I can see if ambiguity of language is hanging us up.This message has been edited by smak_84, 04-22-2006 05:25 PM

As far as the OP is concerned, I'll have to agree with example 2. We're judged on our conduct - our adherence/disobedience, given what we're given. Essential to this point is the discussion on faith and works.As far as faith and works tied together...sure if you're living out the faith that is within you. You still need to allow for free will in this situation. Just because God takes up residence within you (and I do not deny this fact) doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot still reject his love.There are once passonate Christians who have defected, you see.So if you have faith, you have the light shining in the darkness, you know the way to go...but you still need to pickup your feet and walk to the light (this is still dependant on your cooperation with the Divine plan - just because he dwells within you doesn't mean he takes away your free will...you're not perfected yet).So back to the OP: we're judged on our adherence to the faith we recieve, believe, and execute (this is adherence to what Christianity objectivly teaches, and not someone's opinion of what it teaches).

What authority does Wesley have to interpert scripture?

There seems to be many, many scattered opinions about what the Bible says (Satan's obviously at work here). Who has the authority to teach as the Apostles did (to interpert things correctly, without a doubt), and how can we identify this source? Check out 2 Peter for talk about private interpertation, and why it cannot be done.

2 Peter 1:20, "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpertation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God."How do we know for sure who these people are? Seeing as how many who claim this contradict each other, who are we to believe? Many of these people who contradict each other are good Christians. Who decides matters of faith and morals when we have a question -- like they did with circumcision in Acts? Certainly God didn't leave his Church running without a source for these teachings? He also said that the gates of the neatherworld would not prevail against His Church...so then His church would've always existed from the beginning of Christianity."Behold I am with you till the end of the age." Where is the Church that he is always with? Christianity was unified for hundreds of years (with small Gnostic groups popping up here and there, but nothing major). The Church that Christ established has got to still be around, still guarding the same teachings that the early Christians were entrusted with by Christ. However, which Church would this be?This is what I mean by 2 Peter's passage.This message has been edited by smak_84, 04-22-2006 10:21 PM

Peter's writing here is more of an exhortation...a pep talk to the ones being persecuted. It's kinda saying "look, the persecutors are in trouble - you're on the right track - stay faithful and pray for your persecutors."The rightous are barely saved, because humanity is fallen and broken. It's a work in progress (id est it's not easy to follow God's commands for we are sinners ourselves).

Back to topic.I'll say I agree with the Hitler analogy. We cannot be sure who'll end up where (for God alone judges that). But I don't think your proposition has any problems (but Hitler's probably in trouble).Further, it seems what is inclusive in "faith" seems to be misunderstood. I've seen this idea before. It almost exactly matches the concept of "grace" used by many Christians. However, grace is more the help, itself, and not the highway. The higher the bandwidth, the more grace.It seems that your understanding of faith is that works are a part of faith -- for faith is an act. I can agree with this. So faith without works is not faith at all then?Faith, as I understand, in the debate of this thread, would be just be the belief in the teachings of Christ, but not the execution of them wheras the works are the execution of the beliefs. Using these definitions, is "faith" without works going to acquire salvation?Further:I take it you're referring to the bell curve?

I think the narrow and wide gates referred to in scripture were just a reference about how easy it is to screw up, not a necessarily restricting factor, but that's beyond the point. I don't think the line is stationary. (Heaven help me, but...) I don't think God judges mathemeatically. He's probably like that teacher who you can go in and talk to and he'll give an 89.345% an A that is defined in the syllabus as a 90% or above (but it's not like you can do anything after you die to prevent yourself from condemnnation if you warrant that). I don't think God keeps the line frozen in one spot. If you fall way short, then you're screwed. If you're way above you're alright. But the "line" itself? I think it's just God's judgement -- a judgement we can't begin to comprehend (I'll admit I cannot comprehend the way God thinks).I would really enjoy continuing this discussion, but I'm beginning work that's going to keep me away from the internet for a while, so I unfortunately cannot continue. I thank all who have discussed things with me and helped me deepen my own knowledge on the subject. God Bless!