Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?

For an eternal being who knew that his 'death' was only temporary, and that held be running about Israel again three days later, Jesus' sacrifice is intensely boring.A God cannot die, Jesus suffered for a paltry 3 hours on a cross, it is hardly inspiring.Brian.

What does this have to do with Jesus?Jesus apparently had nails driven through His hands:John 20: 24-16Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"

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But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

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A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." So, a pretty useless piece of research Ian, maybe you should have read the Bible first. Unless the author of John got it wrong of course. You weren’t suspended from it, the nail through your feet enabled you to take the strain on your legs, that’s why the soldiers were going to break the crucified prisoners legs, this would cause the weight of the upper body to push down on the chest and suffocate the victim. Sometimes the victim would have a little wooden plinth to rest their feet on, but eventually they got tired and suffocated, took an average of three days, makes Jesus’ 3 hours a bit wimpy to me. Don’t say much for the ID brigade. I bet Jesus was glad He got nailed through the hands. He knew who was going to betray Him even before Judas was born, so I don’t think He would have been that attached to the guy. We don’t know anything about His trial, the one recorded in the Gospels was historically impossible and polluted with propaganda such as the Barabbas fantasy. Millions of people have faced similar ordeals in many countries around the world, difference is, Jesus was laughing up His sleeve because He knew it was only a temporary situation. Imagine a young child’s mother being taken into hospital one night and that child being told she was dead and he would never be seeing her again, no final kiss or cuddle, no chance to say cheerio. Jesus saw His mother again, boring. He didn’t do it without protest. This is all pointless ot an eternal being, Jesus declared that He would be back in three days, he knew about it, even the Gospels say that. It was no big deal at all, in fact, given the circumstances, how can anyone be impressed? That’s all anyone can do. Yeah, to con so many people took real guts. ooh, another one, how many characters were in there? So inseparable that the Father could keep secrets from the Son! Except this was not what Jesus said. You have just changed the definition of ”god’ , LOL, do you enjoy making things up? “They”, what are you on about, there is only one God in
Christianity, and that God is eternal and cannot die even for a second, if He could die for a second then He isn’t immortal, you are the one who says he cannot do anything contrary to His nature, yet you are happy to make things up about Him to suit your own purposes? We are talking about God here, an eternal being, we aren’t talking about our spirit. This has nothing to do with the definition of ”God’. God is eternal and cannot die, if your God can die then He isn’t a God. Look, the Bible is clear that Jesus died on the cross, a simple straightforward claim. Well its got to be better than Eastenders. Very briefly I’d assume. Three hours on a cross compared having always existing is barely worth mentioning. Yeah I know, it would be very brief, negligible. I have all the evidence I need to come to a sound conclusion. Jesus was no messiah, it is as obvious as the nose on my face. He fulfilled no messianic prophecies, He has no bloodline to David, and Israel was more suppressed than ever when Jesus ”died’. I know everything about God’s ways, after all, we humans invented Him, and it isn’t difficult to see what a poor job the evangelists have made of inventing Jesus life story.Brian

Its all nice and fluffy Jar, but nothing like the Bible version.Brian.

Let me think.What could God do to be forgiven for all the sins He has committed against mankind. Well, I can only think of one that would make up for God's atrocities over the centuries, but it beyond His power to do it.Brian.

You really are confused. I never said this was accurate, you were the one who said He was crucified through the wrist, I presented the verse to contradict your assertion. Are you saying that the evangelist was incorrect when he said Jesus was cricified through the hands? Quite straightforward.We don't know what happened at His trial because the reports we have are inaccurate.Now, if you wish to say that the doubting Thomas incident is inaccurate then that's up to you.I am just wondering why you are ignoring the Gospels.Brian.

God was certainly feeling very guitly about something, why else would He try to make up for all the evil deeds He has done?

The Hebrew word for hand is ”yod’, I have no idea if there was a different word for ”wrist’, but since the Gospel of John was written in Greek then the Hebrew is irrelevant. I call it my wrist as well, but what does this have to do with anything? But, the wrists would be bound to the cross to stop this happening, the wiki article you cited from even explains this. This is contrary to everything I have read about crucifixion. I was under the impression that the wooden plinth was there to extend the life and suffering of the victim:The Lutterworth Bible Dictionary ’crucifixion’ page 185 Crucifixion was a form of punishment in the ancient world in which a person was suspended on a vertical shaft by being bound and/or nailed to it. Do you have a reference for this Ian, as I said I have never heard of this form of crucifixion and would appreciate a reference thanks. Being tied to the cross, plus having a plinth to stand on, would ensure the victims wouldn’t slide off.Since the Gospel of John was written in Greek, wouldn’t the author use the Greek word ”karpal’ if he meant the wrist? That word ”karpal’ looks very familiar, wonder where I have seen that before Brian

Well, we all learn something new everyday. Brian.

Phat,If there was some sort of celestial social work department, Yahweh would be put in jail long ago and all of His children taken into care.Brian.

Wouldn't the word karpal be a clue?Anyway, this is all academic since we don't know how Jesus (or even 'if' for that matter) was crucified.There is nothing to say that He had to be crucified through the wrist.Imagine all those hundreds of thousands of images of Jesus on the cross all being inaccurate. Now that is worth pondering.Brian.

Maybe we could get some of the other gods in the Canaanite pantheon to do it?But, since He isn't doing a very good job, and hasn't done so since He created us, we would be better off left alone. Brian.

Hi phat If He really does desire this then none of us will perish and the faith v. works debate is redundant.Brian.