Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8927 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-23-2019 9:07 AM
24 online now:
jar, JonF (2 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,268 Year: 15,304/19,786 Month: 2,027/3,058 Week: 401/404 Day: 5/63 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 224 of 460 (175934)
01-11-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
01-10-2005 10:00 PM


We have to worship God in the way he wants, not the way we want.
Dear Jar;

More is required than just being a good person. There is the issue of God's sovereignty, the Devil has challenged the rightness of God's rulership and has claimed that no one will unselfishly remain faithful to God under test. So more is involved than not running over turtles.

One of the most important points in the Bible is that we have to worship God in the way he wants, not the way we want. (Proverbs 14:12) "There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward." We are not free to worship God however we chose, Paul wrote the Corinthians.
(1 Corinthians 1:10) "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

Obviously if God didn't approve of the divisions in the congregation, Paul wrote under inspiration of the holy spirit, God doesn't approve of the divisions in christendom. We are told that God is a god of order, not disorder, so he would never of approve of the religious mess we have today. We are also told that the way to salvation is a narrow door and few are the ones finding, which means the majority of christendom must be on the wrong path. Paul said that many would be misled into ways of worship or religions that would not meet with divine approval.

(1 Timothy 4:1-3) "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created"

(Acts 20:29-30) "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."

Now the people following these false leaders were mislead, they would think they were still serving God acceptably, but they would not be. All they had to do was to check the Bible and see that what they were being taught was in conflict with scripture, and then to get out of such a false religion and find those who were worshipping God in harmony with what the Bible teaches.

Many of the common doctrines taught by most of the religions in christendom are in complete conflict with scripture, those religions are not in god's favor since such doctrines are at 1 Timothy 4:1-3 said to be inspired by demons. We can not be part of a religion with 'demon inspired' doctrines and have God's favor. God wants us to worship him in spirit and truth, not lies and false doctrines.

(John 4:22-24) "YOU worship what YOU do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."

He was referring to Samaritans who had a form of worship of Jehovah but they had changed a few things from the way they had been taught, now if the worship of the Samaritans he was referring was unacceptable to God, so would be that of the religions today who have done basically the same thing.

(Mark 7:7) "It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men."

He was referring to Jews who add just merely added things to the way they were supposed to worship Jehovah, now if the worship of the Jews he was referring was in vain, how much more so would be that of the religions today with demon inspired doctrines.

So it most certainly is not up to us to find a religion that we like, we have to find the religion God likes.

More information on the issue of "What Does God Require of Us?" is covered at this link and addresses what is True Christianity and what the Bible has say on a number of basic questions that many people have.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/index.htm

Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 10:00 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by riVeRraT, posted 01-11-2005 10:42 PM wmscott has not yet responded
 Message 239 by lfen, posted 02-03-2005 3:49 PM wmscott has responded

    
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 247 of 460 (184667)
02-11-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by lfen
02-03-2005 3:49 PM


Re: We have to worship God in the way he wants, not the way we want.
Dear Ifen

Well, it's obvious Paul was wrong too. It's all more of the same religion created by people
Paul is wrong because he disagrees with you? What Paul wrote, he wrote under the guiding force of the holy spirit, which is why what he wrote, is today part of the inspired word of God. What he worte is also in harmony with the rest of the Bible, it is supported by other scriptures in other parts of the Bible. So the religion Paul wrote about wasn't created by him, it was created by God.
God doesn't speak Hebrew, or English.
You don't read the Bible much I gather. (Exodus 6:10) "Then Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying:" God is certainly capible of speaking clearly in any langauge he desires. The Bible is the written record of what he has said to mankind and what he inspired the Bible writers to write.

Jeremiah 36:1-2 "this word occurred to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying: "Take for yourself a roll of a book, and you must write in it all the words that I have spoken to you against Israel and against Judah and against all the nations, since the day that I spoke to you, since the days of Jo·si´ah, clear down to this day."

These words you love are by humans for humans. They are abstractions and not truth.
2 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is inspired of God" The Bible was written by men under the power of the holy spirit, they wrote what God wanted them to write. (2 Samuel 23:2) "The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, And his word was upon my tongue." The Bible is the word of God and the word of God is truth. (John 17:17) "your word is truth."
religionists will quibble and quarrel over these utterances and pronouncements each feeling themselves to be right and the other wrong.
The reason for the quibbling is simple, most religions aren't following The Bible. The Bible itself predicted,(1 Timothy 4:1) "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons," this has happened of course and is why there is so much quibbling. The way of finding out who is following the Bible and who is not, is to simply check what the Bible said on the matter. 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight,"

Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by lfen, posted 02-03-2005 3:49 PM lfen has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by MiguelG, posted 02-17-2005 12:20 AM wmscott has responded
 Message 256 by doctrbill, posted 02-18-2005 10:21 PM wmscott has not yet responded

    
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 258 of 460 (186708)
02-19-2005 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by MiguelG
02-17-2005 12:20 AM


Re: How to worship God?
Dear MiguelG;
[Wmscott: 2 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is inspired of God" The Bible was written by men under the power of the holy spirit, they wrote what God wanted them to write.] -So you're saying that God wanted people to write in Deuteronomy & Leviticus that it was ok to stone rape victims (from the city mind you), and stone disobedient children?

Yes, he did, the law code was from God. Jesus said so at, (Mark 7:10-13) "Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' . . . YOU men no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother, and thus YOU make the word of God invalid by YOUR tradition" Jesus himself stated that the law was the word of God. (your rape 'victim' was not a victim, but a willing participant, and the disobedient child was not a young child, but someone old enough to be a drunkard.)

being who is supposed to have slaughtered countless innocents in a global flood and at Som & Gommorrah etc.?
Jesus referred to both as acts of God and that something simular would happen in the future, as an act of God. (Luke 17:26-30) "just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. But on the day that Lot came out of Sod´om it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed."

No innocents died in the flood or in Sodom and Gomorrah. (2 Peter 2:5-6) "he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sod´om and Go·mor´rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come;" Only the 'ungodly' died in both of these executions of divine justice.

Clearly, love is of paramount importance and all other scripture must be subordinate to and interpreted through these commandments.
Of course, but if you love your child, do you still discipline him? Of course you do. God's justice is balanced by his love, but the reverse is equally true. It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous.

(2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) "This takes into account that it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction"

It is only possible for the meek to inherit the earth and live in peace, after the wicked have been destroyed. Notice also in the above verse that Jesus is the one who leads the angels in the destruction of the wicked. People seem to have this all pink and fuzzy lovely dovey view of God and Jesus, that they are incapable of harming anyone, even the wicked. Which is not what God's word tells us, as the above verse shows, people forget that God has four main qualities, one is love, then wisdom, justice and power. So while God is love, that is not all he is.

Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by MiguelG, posted 02-17-2005 12:20 AM MiguelG has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 8:42 AM wmscott has responded
 Message 265 by MiguelG, posted 02-19-2005 11:18 AM wmscott has responded

    
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 281 of 460 (186916)
02-20-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Brian
02-19-2005 8:42 AM


Was there a day old baby in Sodom? It was Sodom.
Dear Brain;

Can you explain how a day old baby born in Sodom could be considered wicked?

Was there a day old baby in Sodom? It was Sodom. Do you have any evidence that there were any such who were killed? Considering the moral atmosphere in sodom and Gomorrah, any one with a family may have left the area long before the destruction occurred. When Jehovah told Abraham of the coming destruction, Abraham voiced concern over the possibility of any righteous persons being killed along with the wicked, Jehovah stated. (Genesis 18:26-32) "Then Jehovah said: "If I shall find in Sod´om fifty righteous men in the midst of the city I will pardon the whole place on their account.' . . . In turn he said: "I shall not bring it to ruin on account of the ten." If there would have been just ten righteous people, the place would not have been destroyed. In fact the only righteous person in the area was Lot whom the angels had to drag out of town by his hand. (Genesis 19:15-16) "then the angels became urgent with Lot, . . . When he kept lingering, then in the compassion of Jehovah upon him, the men seized hold of his hand and of the hand of his wife and of the hands of his two daughters and they proceeded to bring him out" Once Lot and his family were out of town, there were no righteous people left in the area and it was destroyed.

So there was no one righteous was killed by God, if there were any children there, they were counted as wicked by the God who can read hearts and knows the future. God can see what the child will grow up to be. (Genesis 25:23) "Jehovah proceeded to say to her: "Two nations are in your belly, and two national groups will be separated from your inward parts; and the one national group will be stronger than the other national group, and the older will serve the younger."

Sincerley Yours; Wm Scott Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Brian, posted 02-19-2005 8:42 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 10:24 AM wmscott has responded

    
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 282 of 460 (186917)
02-20-2005 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by MiguelG
02-19-2005 11:18 AM


Jesus will tread the 'winepress of the anger of God'
Dear MiguelG;

Explain please, how such laws as discussed here are in accordance with a teaching of love?
[Wmscott: (your rape 'victim' was not a victim, but a willing participant…] -Because she was raped in the city?

Here read it for yourself. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24) "In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, YOU must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die, the girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city," If she didn't scream, which was a legal requirement to establish her innocency, she was a willing participant.
[Wmscott: …and the disobedient child was not a young child, but someone old enough to be a drunkard.] -Old enough?So a 13 year old could be stoned? Maybe a 12 year old? Should we just stone all drunkards?
I believe under Jewish tradition, children came under the law at age 12, so the minimum age would be 12. The actual age would probably be higher if you read the legal requirements. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) "In case a man happens to have a son who is stubborn and rebellious, he not listening to the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and they have corrected him but he will not listen to them, his father and his mother must also take hold of him and bring him out to the older men of his city and to the gate of his place, and they must say to the older men of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he is not listening to our voice, being a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city must pelt him with stones, and he must die." The description is of a hardened Juvenal delinquent, while it is possible for some to perhaps reach this state by the age of 12, is sounds more like a teenager or older to me. Anyone who fits this description is worthy of the punishment.
[Wmscott: No innocents died in the flood or in Sodom and Gomorrah.] -Perhaps you could explain then how a baby, toddler or young child might be 'ungodly' or not innocent?

Do you have any evidence that there were any such who were killed? Considering the moral atmosphere in sodom and Gomorrah, any one with a family may have left the area long before the destruction occurred. When Jehovah told Abraham of the coming destruction, Abraham voiced concern over the possibility of any righteous persons being killed along with the wicked, Jehovah stated. (Genesis 18:26-32) "Then Jehovah said: "If I shall find in Sod´om fifty righteous men in the midst of the city I will pardon the whole place on their account.' . . . In turn he said: "I shall not bring it to ruin on account of the ten." If there would have been just ten righteous people, the place would not have been destroyed. In fact the only righteous person in the area was Lot whom the angels had to drag out of town by his hand. (Genesis 19:15-16) "then the angels became urgent with Lot, . . . When he kept lingering, then in the compassion of Jehovah upon him, the men seized hold of his hand and of the hand of his wife and of the hands of his two daughters and they proceeded to bring him out" Once Lot and his family were out of town, there were no righteous people left in the area and it was destroyed.

So there was no one righteous was killed by God, if there were any children there, they were counted as wicked by the God who can read hearts and knows the future. God can see what the child will grow up to be. (Genesis 25:23) "Jehovah proceeded to say to her: "Two nations are in your belly, and two national groups will be separated from your inward parts; and the one national group will be stronger than the other national group, and the older will serve the younger."

Discipline is a word that covers a multitude of sins. How much punishment would you say is fair for a disobedient child? Suffice it to say that I would not stone, incinerate or in any way greviously harm, mutilate or slay my own offspring – or indeed any child.

You have been making the mistake of applying human laws to God, we are not to kill, because Jehovah is the one who will destroy the wicked, not us. (Hebrews 10:30-31) "For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God." God can read hearts and knows the future, he will kill the wicked, young or old, but he will kill only the wicked. The righteous, young or old, he saves. I trust Jehovah to alway to what is right. Do you?
And you believe that the Bible sanctions humans to 'chastise' the wicked?

What verse or verses are you referring to?
The picture you paint of Christ is your own and not supported by the words and deeds of Christ Himself.

Jesus Christ will 'tread' the 'winepress' of the wrath of god. (Revelation 19:15-16) "He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."

Now what is the "winepress of the anger of God"? It is described here. (Revelation 14:18-20) "Put your sharp sickle in and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because its grapes have become ripe." And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and he hurled it into the great winepress of the anger of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress as high up as the bridles of the horses, for a distance of a thousand six hundred furlongs."

So here Jesus Christ treads the grapes of the vine of the earth, and the blood of the grapes comes out of the press as high as the bridles of the horses. What is the 'vine of the earth' and what are the grapes? The vine is world of mankind opposed to God, and the grapes are people and the ripeness is their wickedness. (Joel 3:12-13) "Let the nations be aroused and come up to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; for there I shall sit in order to judge all the nations round about. "THRUST in a sickle, for harvest has grown ripe. Come, descend, for [the] winepress has become full. The press vats actually overflow; for their badness has become abundant."

So when God has the wicked destroyed, Jesus Christ will be treading the wine press, crusting the wicked beneath his feed. The winepress is symbolic, it illustrates the completeness of the destruction of the wicked, of which Jesus will have the lead in destroying.

Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by MiguelG, posted 02-19-2005 11:18 AM MiguelG has not yet responded

    
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 285 of 460 (187157)
02-21-2005 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Brian
02-20-2005 10:24 AM


Re: Was there a day old baby in Sodom? It was Sodom.
Dear Brain;

It was a hypothetical question, I was assuming that there would be babies in a city, which is a reasonable assumption.

Yes certainly a reasonable assumption for a normal city, which Sodom was not. (Genesis 18:20) "Jehovah said: "The cry of complaint about Sod´om and Go·mor´rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy." Considering the 'loud' 'cry of complaint about Sodom', and the lack of righteous people found there, any decent family types had apparently left the area. (Genesis 19:4-5) "the men of Sod´om, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob. And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: "Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them." Of the remaining men left in the city, they were all homosexual. This was not a place to raise children. Which is why I say that there were probably few, if any children, there at the time.

How can I have evidence when we do not even know if Sodom or Gomorrah existed at all, there is no evidence to suport these cities ever existing, the whole tale is hypothetical.

See the book "The Destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho; Geological, Climatological, and Archaeological Background" David Neev, K.O. Emery, Oxford University Press, 1995.

Now if you believe the tale hypothetical, a moral story, why do you insist on God killing the innocents? The evidence from our most detailed account, the Bible, states that there were no innocents destroyed. The wickedness that you keep seeing is in your own mind. You want to see God as wicked, so you can claim a reason for not believing in him. (Ezekiel 33:17) "people have said, 'The way of Jehovah is not adjusted right,' but, as for them, it is their way that is not adjusted right."

But no one is righteous according to the Bible, so a day old baby would be considered wicked, and probably still is by some Christians.
This is also a problem as to why God allowed Lot to survive. Surely this incestuous drunk would be counted as wicked and punished for his future deeds? If it is good enough for a baby to die before it commits wicked acts then it should be good enough for Lot.

Easy on the hatred Brain, so you really hate Christians. I can't blame you for hating the hypocritical ones, but you seem to hate all and God as well. Your hatred is blinding your mind to reasonable thought. Hatred such as yours is the seeds from which prejudice and intolerance grown, if allowed to grown in your heart and mind long enough, you will one day do terrible things. The thoughts of today, tend to be the actions of tomorrow. Is that the kind of person you wish to become? I would suggest you sit down and think things over, and try to get at least get a less intolerant view of things. People do reap what they sow, what people do, does tend to come back to them in time. So don't let yourself be consumed and twisted by the flames of hate.

Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message has been edited by wmscott, 02-21-2005 08:35 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Brian, posted 02-20-2005 10:24 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Chiroptera, posted 02-21-2005 1:54 PM wmscott has responded
 Message 287 by berberry, posted 02-21-2005 2:46 PM wmscott has not yet responded
 Message 288 by Brian, posted 02-21-2005 2:53 PM wmscott has responded

    
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 294 of 460 (187556)
02-22-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Chiroptera
02-21-2005 1:54 PM


Thank you for pointing out my error to me.
Dear Chiroptera;

The assumption that there were no children in Sodom when it was destroyed appears to be a rationalization to get the Biblical text to agree with one's 21st century sensibilities.

Yes, I have realized that you are right, I am guilty of trying to do just that. Thank you for pointing out my error to me, I hadn't realized that my thinking was being limited by my cultural mind set. But in the case of Sodom I do view it as a possibility. In Sodom, 100% of the male population was homosexual, in the USA it is something like 0.5% with less than 5% having homosexual tendances in surveys. While the percentage of homosexuals in a population is heavily influenced by culture, a 100% figure seems only possible through selective population effects. Or in other words, the non homosexuals left town and the percentage went up. As the percentage went up, so did the pressure for other people to leave. This selective migration factor may be what resulted in the 100%, call it the San Francisco effect. ;)

Do you also believe that there were no children on the earth when Noah's flood began?

My personal speculation is, that there were no Homo Sapiens Sapiens children on the earth when the flood began, which is also why the flood was necessary.

But if you want to argue, (Exodus 12:29) "And it came about that at midnight Jehovah struck every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Phar´aoh sitting on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the prison hole, and every firstborn of beast." Why quibble over children who may or may not have been in Sodom when you have this account of a direct act of God which killed the first born children of an entire nation? It is not a question of whether or not they were in town, they were the target. So if the argument is about God killing children, that is case to argue.

Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Chiroptera, posted 02-21-2005 1:54 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    
wmscott
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 296 of 460 (187558)
02-22-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Brian
02-21-2005 2:53 PM


Re: Was there a day old baby in Sodom? It was Sodom.
Dear Brian;

There is nothing to suggest that 'decent' family types had left the area. There is textual evidence against this though in the shape of what must have been a righteous family, namely Lot, his wife and two daughters. So, if all the decent family types had left, then that suggests that Lot and his family were not decent, and deserved to die with the rest of Sodom. Thus, your claim is incorrect and unsupported.
I have already posted on why I think that they had. Lot had no young children, both of his daughters were of marriageable age. As to why he didn't leave, both of this daughters were engaged to local men and his wife clearly didn't want to leave. He was probably faced with the choice of staying or possibly having to leave his family behind in Sodom. My argument that there may have been no young children at the time of it's destruction, is speculation on my part, but so is the reverse, we are not told clearly one way or the other.
So, you are saying that all homosexuals are wicked and deserve to die, deary me, so much for Christian love.

"What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men," (1 Corinthians 6:9)
(Leviticus 20:13) "'And when a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them."
(Romans 1:27) "and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error."

Why not summaraise the arguments instead of asking someone to read a book?

Because you obviously need too. :) I was referring to the fact that the book existed, which proved your agruemnt false, that there was 'no' evidence of the destruction of Sodom. The book "The Destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho; Geological, Climatological, and Archaeological Background" David Neev, K.O. Emery, Oxford University Press, 1995. is available for sale on Amazon, here is the description they have for it.

The story of the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho--three cities situated along a major fault line extending 1,100 kilometers from the Red Sea to Turkey--is the oldest such description in human history. In this book, noted geologists K.O. Emery and David Neev have revisited that story to shed light on what happened there some 4,350 years ago. With all the benefits of modern geological and forensic science techniques at their disposal, the authors explore an area where earthquakes, volcanic activity, variations in the Dead Sea's level, and oscillations between arid and wet climates have affected life there for over 10,000 years. In reviewing the geology, biblical paleogeography, and limnology of the region, the authors have produced fascinating insights into the tectonic and climatic changes that have occurred in the region over the last 6,000 years and how those changes have affected cultural life in the Middle East. The Destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho is the first book to combine modern science and biblical archaeology to produce an authoritative account of the of these three great cities. It will fascinate students and researchers in geology, geophysics, and archaeology alike.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail...

It has been a while since I read it, but the gist of it was that the destruction occurred just as described in the Bible, there is plenty of geological evidence for it, but they did not find the city sites and the geologic events are believed to have occurred earlier than the biblical date given in the Bible.

All I asked is how a one day old baby could be deemed wicked;

Can't. Can't be counted as righteous ether however. Young children in the Bible are sometimes lumped in with their parents, and sometimes they are not.

According to the Bible God said there is no righteous in Sodom, that was when Lot was living there with his wife and daughters. Now Lot should have been killed with the rest of the inhabitants of Sodom because he could not have been righteous according to God.
That was no one except for Lot.
We see how disgusting a creature this man is when he offers up his daughters for gang rape to the people surrounding his house, so Lot is clearly a nasty piece of work.
Think about it, he offered his daughters to a gang of homosexuals, knowing that their future husbands were in the crowd, and that two angels were behind him in the house. Also, he didn't bring his daughters out with him when he stepped out into the night by himself to face the mob, and closed the door behind himself and stood in front of it and blocked the door with his body. He showed that he was willing to risk his own daughters to protect Jehovah's angels, angels which he knew could have destroyed the whole town in a blink of an eye. You don't understand the culture, he never intended any harm to come to his daughters, this was a cultural mind game. He couldn't impose on his guests by directly asking them to intervene, and as host he had to protect them. Lot fulfilled both requirements of his culture and succeeded in getting the angels to intervene without asking them to.

Very soon after leaving Sodom we all know what this incestuous drunk would do, thus God should know what Lot would do, so I can only assume that it is righteous to get both your daughters pregnant and be a drunken sod as well, is this what God considers righteous?

You are confusing righteousness with perfection, righteous people are not perfect and still sin. If you bother to read the account, Lot's daughters got him drunk and took advantage of him. (Genesis 19:35) "So they repeatedly gave their father wine to drink during that night also; then the younger got up and lay down with him, but he did not know when she lay down and when she got up." Maybe Lot was getting a bit old by this point in time, and wasn't that aware of how much he was drinking, and then got date raped by his own daughters. If Lot had approved of his daughters family planning efforts, they wouldn't have needed to get him drunk to carry out their nefarious plan.

So, why was Lot considered by God to be righteous?

(Genesis 12:1-4) "And Jehovah proceeded to say to A´bram: "Go your way out of your country and from your relatives and from the house of your father to the country that I shall show you; and I shall make a great nation out of you and I shall bless you and I will make your name great; and prove yourself a blessing. And I will bless those who bless you, and him that calls down evil upon you I shall curse, and all the families of the ground will certainly bless themselves by means of you." At that A´bram went just as Jehovah had spoken to him, and Lot went with him." Abraham and Lot were faithful worshipers of Jehovah God, and when Abraham was told to leave his home land and go to a distant land, he acted in faith and Lot went with him. Lot cast his 'lot' in with Abraham, he was a man of faith.

(Genesis 19:1-3) "Now the two angels arrived at Sod´om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod´om. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth. And he proceeded to say: "Please, now, my lords, turn aside, please, into the house of YOUR servant and stay overnight and have YOUR feet washed. Then YOU must get up early and travel on YOUR way." To this they said: "No, but in the public square is where we shall stay overnight." But he was very insistent with them, so that they turned aside to him and came into his house." Lot was also concerned about the welfare of others, and out of the whole town of Sodom, he was the only one to extend the customary hospitality of the time.

(2 Peter 2:7-8) "he delivered righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the indulgence of the law-defying people in loose conduct— for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds" Lot was also righteous in that he hated badness, he was such a righteous person that the lawlessness of the Sodomites tormented him.

Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

shortened url to fix page width-The Queen

This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 02-22-2005 18:24 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Brian, posted 02-21-2005 2:53 PM Brian has not yet responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019