Who can be saved? A Christian perspective

I agree with the first part of your premise, jar. Anyone who has never had a belief will get the chance to do so. I DO NOT agree that anyone who denies the existance of God will be saved,however. Let me clarify: Once God has made Himself known to someone, they best not deny Him. They may have denied Him prior to this event, however. As usual, Mike gives a Christian response...which I agree with.(being a Christian)
We believe in the Bible, yet we will not presume to judge anyone elses salvation. One question: From your atheist perspective, do souls and humans merely cease to exist? No trace of a lifetime charcter or soul...except though the bloody kids??!! I tend to agree with this prognosis more. and this contrasts with your first quote, (anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD.)

So what you are essentially saying is that a guy could be an atheist and yet because he professed a love for "the least of these" with essentially all his heart,soul, mind, and strength--he would be saved. Right?Because he is doing for the least of these, he is doing for God...
I won't dispute scripture, but I must point out that in Matthew, Jesus is addressing His Disciples..which are Jews, and that He is speaking of the time of His Second Coming. Many, though not ALL believe that before the Second Coming, the Church will have been taken out beforehand. The rest of the world...unbelievers...and the Jews will be left.In context, Jesus is speaking of the standards by which God will judge those who are not traditional Christians.
In other words, I guess that you are right, jar and I see your point.
My point was that anyone who has already seen and or known Jesus
such as you or I--cannot then deny Him and go off doing good works being a skeptic but loving humanity.If the Bible is true in all regards, the word says that those who have received a Disciple will have received Jesus, and by receiving Jesus they will receive God.I'm with Mike in that we cannot judge who is and is not saved.
Say I grew up in Calcutta. Having never had a Baptist (or any other)
Preacher bang on my door, I know little of the Christian message except through the examples of people whom I know to be Christians..
Ideally, these Christians will be doing well for the least of these around me...and by example I see the love of God. Lets say, however, that I did not even know any Christians. Driven by a deep unction in my soul, I instinctively helped those around me who were less fortunate. (Matthew 25)--The one point that I disagree with you is is that I could not ever deny God..or Christ...since I had never MET them to begin with.(Either directly,through communion/salvation experience or indirectly through another Christian.You said that EVEN if I DID deny them I would be saved just by doing the good works.
Seeing as how you were brought up Catholic while I am Protestant, I can understand the "good works" interpretation.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Sorry. I don't know where I picked it up, either. Yes. Do you think that human wisdom is our only reliable source? Belief in God, abstract though it may seem, qualifies as a concrete source of wisdom apart from human derived.

No. There is a measureable difference between a man and a monkey or even a dolphin. There is an infinite difference between a man and God.
If Humanity= 10, Divinity= --->Infinity

(I know that you are setting me up, but...) Yes...much greater.
Again, infinitely greater. Greater than the difference between a human and an amoeba.

Yes. God understands the known and unknown Laws of the Universe. He can even transcend them in theory,(miracles,supernatural manifestations) yet does not choose to do so in general. He operates within the context of what we know as reality. He understands our limited knowledge and the vast gulf that seperates our understanding. He is not interested in "showing off" to us. His desire is that we recognize our need for Him. He desires our love and worship NOT for His own Ego, but for our own good.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-04-2004 11:08 AM

Good point, and I almost agree. God never sends people to Hell, however. People send themselves there by denying God and following a whim or an idea that they conceive to be better. God gives numerous chances for repentance all through the Bible. I would imagine that He has made it very possible (though not easy) for us to avoid conscious denial of Him. By the way, Mike, the BCP which jar described I looked up. Is it this? Jar, I suppose that the Anglicans had a cool prayer book, but do prayer books count as canonical? I am editing as you are posting, jar. In answer to your next post I agree with you in that God is SO much greater than us and since, after all, He knows how human nature is, He WILL probably overlook a lot of what we do, say, think, and believe. Doers this absolve those of us who know better, however? We know that we are drawn to love Jesus and His Father with ALL of what we can muster!
To those who do not yet feel this way, perhaps God will forgive them anyway. Maybe a "Get out of Hell, Free" card?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-05-2004 12:03 AM

I answered you above, (editing while you replied) but one more point. There is an intelligence in humans that leads to possible accountability...whereas an amoeba...with very limited intelligence, has very little accountability. I guess the next question is this: Who sets the standard for responsibility and accountability? If God expected nothing out of us, it would be His call...but Does He expect anything from us?

You are being too harsh on judging all of these guys.. Yes. They are fallen Christians in need of forgiveness. I don't think that ALL of them have come to total repentance yet, but Jim Bakker, for one, started over in soup kitchens and his son is a great street evangelist working with skaters and taggers http://www.jimbakkershow.com/show.html Why do we get so angry when a preacher falls, especially when it involves money, yet we are SO forgiving to the C.E.O. bigwigs and their 100 million dollar thefts which cause thousands to lose their health insurance? I know that Swaggert got got twice, and I am doubtful if he is even repentent now...but can I judge him? The thousands who were duped by these T.V. swindlers are as much as fault themselves for being naive enough to fall for the lie. This does not mean that all media preachers are bad....some of them are very good...such as Charles Stanley and Michael Yousef. Chuck Swindoll is a good radio preacher as is Raul Reese from California. Bakker is forgiven by most of the people whom he misled...lets show some forgiveness and love, Jar Jar!This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-05-2004 03:37 AM

The critics would say that you can't just embrace a benevolant easygoing God who saves everybody...because what would be the point of the Bible texts that say that narrow is the path and few find it? Maybe the modern day Pharisees are scared that they could not manipulate their flock if it was known that God loves and accepts everybody! Even if they don't put any bling bling in the plate!

Crashfrog, bear with me...I want to play a bit of amateur psychologist, here. Answer me a couple of questions.
1) How was your relationship with your Dad or Father figure that you had while growing up? Is there any anger surrounding this situation?
2) My guess(which is probably wrong) is that you had some issues in this area.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-08-2004 05:00 PM

Gosh, Jar, you DO have a pretty good defense of your favorite scripture. I am impressed! One minor detail. This scripture refers to the state of the world AFTER the church has been taken up. The ones left are the bretheren, Jewish believers, and the nations, all other non christian people. Just a footnote.

Like I said, jar--this is one possible interpretation. To understand it, you have to understand dispensationalism.The Jews, whom were the First Chosen would be the Last to receive Gods mercy...although they would eventually see what they had been blinded to. The Church, which includes all true believers today, will be taken away from the Earth before the Judgement. Jesus is talking to His Disciples, which are not part of the Church. They are part of the little flock...which gets into an entire discussion on dispensational theology ...but not now.

Pharisees and Wannabes So we have to base our judgement on what a person DOES rather than what they say or proclaim....right, Jar? Who or what does a person worship? I use this term loosely...for an atheist, for example, who or what passion occupies their time, talent, and attention? I must say, Jar that you did open a very large and productive can of worms with your Sheep and Goats scripture. Good job! Yet nobody that I know walks this walk 100% of the time. Is salvation merely a huge game of cosmic musical chairs? If the music (your life) stops at a time when you are not doing or thinking good works, do you forfeit a seat at the great table in the sky? Obviously, we can not really judge anyone. Only God does that, according to my belief. Good point, Brian. I might add that many if not most of the early Popes certainly were suspect. Just because a person thinks that they are saved does not mean that they are saved. Salvation, in my view, is based upon TRUST and RELATIONSHIP rather than EFFORT. It does follow, however, that if one trusts Jesus and loves Him, fostering a daily relationship of prayer and awareness of Christ, one WILL do many good works. As for me, I am not the judge of you, Lam. Personally, I have nothing against you. You have no more sin in your life than anyone else on this board or anywhere.We all have issues. As for myself, I have come to the realization that I NEED Jesus every minute of every day. I behave in a Christ-like way less than I should. One clarification, here, Brian. Is a Christian someone who behaves in a Christ-like way? If so, I am a Christian perhaps 5% of the time. I call myself a work in progress, and I suppose that the next question is this: If I, or you, or anyone else is to be considered a work in progress (towards salvation) WHO is it that completes the work? I have heard several answers for this one. Some say that we are saved from God Himself. Others say that we are saved from our own imperfections by allowing a "perfect Spirit" to in effect become our patch. I prefer to use the term adopted. We are adopted into the family of the perfect Spirit of love. One concern that many have is this: Must I lose my identity? I liken the event to "meeting Jesus." If this meeting between God in the flesh and man is initiated by God, it is then up to us to accept the relationship. If I walk down a street, I encounter many people, yet I may meet only a few of them. If Jesus is who He says He is, one will be changed upon meeting Him. To an atheist, the only requirement is not to believe that this will happen so much as being open to the possibility of positive change. To a Buddhist who "meets" Jesus, they will then become a Buddhist with a personal relationship with Jesus. They will not become a Southern Baptist ex Buddhist! It may well be, however, that as the life of that person changes, they may choose a different religion, but this is NOT about religion. A Christian is one who Knows Christ rather than one who teaches Christian principles. And so, I will shut up, now. Enough of my preaching!

"New Thread"??? Wassup, Nosy?