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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1 of 460 (141539)
09-11-2004 11:22 AM


IMHO, as a Christian, anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD. In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.

So to others out there, whether you are Christian, one of the other Judaic faiths, agnostic or even athiest, what do you think? Who can be saved and how do you support your position?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2004 1:58 PM jar has responded
 Message 6 by lfen, posted 09-11-2004 4:02 PM jar has responded
 Message 18 by almeyda, posted 10-02-2004 6:37 AM jar has responded
 Message 203 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2005 12:37 AM jar has responded
 Message 220 by ohnhai, posted 01-11-2005 11:22 AM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 236 by Terry48420, posted 02-03-2005 12:49 PM jar has responded
 Message 248 by MiguelG, posted 02-16-2005 11:53 PM jar has responded
 Message 326 by IamJoseph, posted 11-16-2011 1:03 AM jar has responded
 Message 328 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2011 6:25 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 7 of 460 (141613)
09-11-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
09-11-2004 1:58 PM


I see you preach the above a lot, about being saved without Christ etc... Make sure to inform people that it's not what the bible says, but what you say.

I have at least always tried to make sure that folk know that I'm only speaking from my opinion. In fact, none of us can do any more than that. We are all only reflecting our own position.

But my beliefs are also Biblically based.

Jesus said that there are two commandments, Love god and the two parter, love others as you love yourself.

Basically, that's it, love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

So the question is, "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"

IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."

If you examine Matthew 25 31:46, it is pretty clear what is needed to love GOD.

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And when you read that, there is nothing about professing GOD or Jesus, nothing about being a Jew or Christian, nothing about being religious. In fact, many who profess a belief in Jesus, who are good Christians, Jews or Muslims, will certainly be Goats and not sheep while many atheists and agnostics will certainly be sheep and not goats.

The Rule of St. Attila of The Endless Tab

edited to add link to St. Attla of the Endless Tab

This message has been edited by jar, 09-11-2004 04:05 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2004 1:58 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2004 5:08 PM jar has responded
 Message 47 by dpardo, posted 10-04-2004 9:04 PM jar has responded
 Message 207 by riVeRraT, posted 01-10-2005 1:04 AM jar has responded
 Message 231 by riVeRraT, posted 01-12-2005 8:34 AM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 8 of 460 (141617)
09-11-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by lfen
09-11-2004 4:02 PM


who or what is this one,

I don't know. I doubt very much that there is or will ever be any bodily resurection.

"saved" means this resurrection body with an earth memory, personality, and skills will live in heaven and never die and sing praise or something for an infinite span of time?

I hope not. I cannot imagine a worse hell than sitting around singing praises for eternity. Puppy love is fine when you're a pre-teen but I have to believe that an afterlife must be something with a little more substance to it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by lfen, posted 09-11-2004 4:02 PM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by lfen, posted 09-11-2004 6:25 PM jar has responded
 Message 214 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-10-2005 11:29 AM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 10 of 460 (141628)
09-11-2004 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mike the wiz
09-11-2004 5:08 PM


Well, actually, Jesus said in no uncertain terms that there were two commandments, and that all the Laws and Prophecy hang on those two commandments. So when there are additions to the Bible that conflict with those two commandments, then I must stop and ask if those additions are really what GOD would think or simply something to help the franchise.

And frankly, most of the insertions that seem to be solely to improve the franchise don't stand up when related to the two commandments.

In addition, as I have said before, GOD and Jesus were not bling-bling pimp-daddies that would get upset when someone disrespected them. A being that could think this universe into existence, that could intuitively understand the relationship between gravity and the other forces, is not someone who would get his nose out of joint because someone says he doesn't exist. GOD is not small and petty, he is not a pimply faced teenager mooning because his love isn't returned. He did not create this universe for mankind, we are only a very recent addition, and it is only our egocentric nature that makes us believe we are anything special.

As to my belief that many Jews, Christians and Muslims will not be saved, I think the cleansing of the temple was a pretty good sign. Even Jesus death and resurection support that idea. Afterall, it was not the atheists and agnostics that were threatened by his life and ministry, but the franchise owners themselves.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2004 5:08 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2004 7:59 PM jar has responded
 Message 27 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-03-2004 4:17 AM jar has responded
 Message 68 by nator, posted 10-05-2004 10:41 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 69 by nator, posted 10-05-2004 10:41 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 12 of 460 (141640)
09-11-2004 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by lfen
09-11-2004 6:25 PM


Actually, I thought that the Mahayana Buddhist vow was to put off enlightenment until they have helped all beings to enlightenment. But that very concept is as hard to define and understand as the Christian concept of soul. We are limited both by concept and language, afterall there is no single word or even combination of words that accurately reflect the meaning of Dukkha, Karma, Samsara, Vipaka and even Enlightenment. There are even differences between the Buddhist and Hindu understanding of very basic terms like Karma and Nirvana.

I am offering a criticism of Christianity not based on the veracity of the Bible, but rather on the accuracy of the key concept of someone who is to be saved or lost. Who or what is this someone? If we can't produce an entity than salvation and damnation are moot.

Or they are personal. Is Enlightenment the same for each individual?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by lfen, posted 09-11-2004 6:25 PM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by lfen, posted 09-11-2004 7:29 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 16 of 460 (141662)
09-11-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
09-11-2004 7:59 PM


Yes, I know, but he also said those other things which you didn't address.

I believe that I did address those. Go back and take a look and if I didn't answer your questions, open a thread on it.

How can anyone recieve that which is from God if they dismiss him?

What is from GOD?

Nevertheless, are you Christ that your opinion rules that which God thinks? How can you know whether he is upset?

I'm most certainly not Christ and have never said that my opinion rules what GOD thinks. But others certainly do.

Yet that won'r mean all atheists are some special kind of people. Yet you seem to support them more than any other group. Why is this?

Not at all. They will be treated like everyone else.

Why should I give heed to Jar's Gospel though?

I can think of no reason. Unless, of course, it is correct.

Sorry Jar but is this catholicism speaking? I'm not catholic.

Do you know what catholic means?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2004 7:59 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2004 8:29 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 19 of 460 (146724)
10-02-2004 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by almeyda
10-02-2004 6:37 AM


Wow, amazing! Jesus Christ wasnt brought for the Jews. He was brought so that we, non-jews shall also the chance to love and serve the Lord. We christians shall also forever be with the lord, while never forgetting his love for Israel and his eternal covenent with his people.

So, I gather from that statement that you believe that GOD has spoken to mankind at least twice. He formed a covenant with the Jews which is still in force. He later sent Jesus to reach people outside the Jewish faith.

Is that correct so far?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by almeyda, posted 10-02-2004 6:37 AM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by almeyda, posted 10-02-2004 2:12 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 21 of 460 (146755)
10-02-2004 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by almeyda
10-02-2004 2:12 PM


Okay next step.

Do you agree that the two Great Commandments are "Love GOD and love others as you love yourself"?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by almeyda, posted 10-02-2004 2:12 PM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by almeyda, posted 10-02-2004 2:42 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 23 of 460 (146764)
10-02-2004 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by almeyda
10-02-2004 2:42 PM


Do you agree that if something happens once, it might be unique. But if something happens more than once there is no reason to believe that it could not happen repeatedly?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by almeyda, posted 10-02-2004 2:42 PM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by almeyda, posted 10-02-2004 11:39 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 25 of 460 (146911)
10-03-2004 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by almeyda
10-02-2004 11:39 PM


Okay, then we agree that if something happens more than once it could happen repeatedly.

If that is the case, if GOD reached out to the Jews directly, the Gentiles through Jesus, why couldn't GOD reach out to the Muslims through Mohhamud, asians through Confucious, Buddha and Mencius and Mormons through Joseph Smith.

Look at Matthew 25. Where does it show any requirement for profession of Jesus, knowledge of Jesus, belief in Jesus or even an intent to acknowledge Jesus? In fact, where does it show a requirement to profess GOD, acknowledge GOD, worship GOD or even an intent to Love GOD?

Matthew 25 is very clear. No interpretation is needed. It says if you have done it for the least of these, you've done it for GOD. It does not say Christians are saved and all others damned. It says those that have loved GOD will be saved even if they never intended to do so.

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by almeyda, posted 10-02-2004 11:39 PM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by almeyda, posted 10-03-2004 3:34 AM jar has responded
 Message 70 by nator, posted 10-05-2004 10:48 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 28 of 460 (146964)
10-03-2004 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Thugpreacha
10-03-2004 4:17 AM


Re: Jesus Saves...Moses Invests
quote:
Phatboy says:
I tend to agree with this prognosis more.
jar writes:

Well, actually, Jesus said in no uncertain terms that there were two commandments, and that all the Laws and Prophecy hang on those two commandments.

and this contrasts with your first quote, (anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD.)

Well according to the Bible, there is no conflict between the two. As I have pointed out, Matthew 25 is pretty clear about what is involved in loving GOD. And it does not have anything to do with what you say, profess or believe.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-03-2004 4:17 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 29 of 460 (146968)
10-03-2004 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by almeyda
10-03-2004 3:34 AM


Well, I agree that there is but one GOD.

I agree that there are false prophets but I also think it more likely that they are Christian Ministers than Mohammud.

I agree that Christians must acknowledge Christ.

But I think you may have totally misread Matthew 25 even though I provided it for you. Please point out the passage in Matthew 25 that says...

The seperation of the sheep and goats is the judgement of the nations. Sheep (saved) & goat (unsaved). Which means that those who didnt accept Christ as there 'Lord' and savior, will not inherit the kingdom.

In fact, please point out the place in Matthew 25 that even mentions belief?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by almeyda, posted 10-03-2004 3:34 AM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-03-2004 2:41 PM jar has responded
 Message 75 by almeyda, posted 10-06-2004 1:03 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 31 of 460 (147021)
10-03-2004 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Thugpreacha
10-03-2004 2:41 PM


I don't know where you got the idea I was brought up a Catholic. I wasn't. Protestant all the way.

I have to ask you a couple questions though. First, do you think GOD is superior to humans?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-03-2004 2:41 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-03-2004 4:04 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 33 of 460 (147030)
10-03-2004 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
10-03-2004 4:04 PM


Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Okay, would you say that the difference between GOD and man is equal to that between a man and a chimp?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-03-2004 4:04 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-03-2004 6:49 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 35 of 460 (147068)
10-03-2004 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Thugpreacha
10-03-2004 6:49 PM


Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Would you say that the difference is greater than between a human and, say, an ant?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-03-2004 6:49 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-04-2004 2:46 AM jar has responded

  
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