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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 203 of 466 (175358)
01-10-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-11-2004 11:22 AM


Holy Spirit
Have you ever recieved a baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I am sorry if I ever asked you this question before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 11:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 6:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 204 of 466 (175360)
01-10-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by NosyNed
10-18-2004 2:56 PM


Re: Theft?
What about if they steal something? Are the not a Christian then? When they stop stealing are they a Christian again? It is turned on and off is it?
They are Christian the whole time. They will pay for their sins, as we all do. They need to repent of their sins, and ask for forgiveness, and with God's mighty love for us, they are forgiven.
Keep in mind that if you do it again, then you really didn't repent.
Ephesians 3
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Once you recieve the Holy Spirit in your life, you are born again in the spirit. It is then that you no longer desire the things of this world, but desire things of God, and his ways.
The Holy Spirit ministers to each of us little by little, and improves our character, and makes us more like Christ(this process can take years, and not everyone completes their training) For many are called, but few are chosen. People wihtout the Holy Spirit in their lives are just acting on faith, and goodness.
I would find it impossible for me, once the Holy Spirit shows me what I am doing wrong, to ever do it again. I would question the authenticity of someone who behaves in that mannor. They surely aren't acting in Christ. but hey who knows, who am I to judge. We are not perfect just because we are Christian, or born again. We are still human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by NosyNed, posted 10-18-2004 2:56 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 206 of 466 (175362)
01-10-2005 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by coffee_addict
10-11-2004 2:49 PM


Re: Back on Topic
No wonder you "opened your eyes"

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 Message 133 by coffee_addict, posted 10-11-2004 2:49 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 207 of 466 (175363)
01-10-2005 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-11-2004 4:31 PM


IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."
Let me try that one on my wife, honey, I love you, but I do not believe you exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 4:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 6:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 210 of 466 (175430)
01-10-2005 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
01-10-2005 6:42 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
Everything

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 6:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 7:53 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 211 of 466 (175431)
01-10-2005 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by jar
01-10-2005 6:42 AM


Re: What does that have to do with the topic?
ditto

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 6:42 AM jar has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 213 of 466 (175472)
01-10-2005 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by jar
01-10-2005 7:53 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
Your the one here preaching the bible and what it means. If you know so much about the bible and Jesus's salvation, then you should know exactly what role a baptism of the Holy Spirit plays in your salvation.
Have you been baptised with the Holy Spirit?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 7:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 7:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 216 of 466 (175661)
01-10-2005 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jar
01-10-2005 7:10 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
Wow, a simple question requiring a simple answer. But instead of just answering it you resort to word tactics to make it seem as if I have nothing valid to say. Just the way Jesus would do it.
Usually I commend you on your attitude and the way you answer people, but not this time. Oh well, lets see if we can make something out of it anyway.
In short I feel as though you are very wrong. The bible is pretty clear in many verses that you must be saved to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus taught us exactly how to do that.
I love the way you are jar, you have a peace about you that is to be commended. But you have conformed yourself to this world, to be accepted by this world rather than focusing in on him. You have made yourself your own God to worship. Or you have made God in your image rather seeing him for who and what he really is.
Here are some verses to back up what I am saying. We can go over them if you want to.
1 Peter 4:18
And, If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
(this also says that not all men can be saved)
2 Thessalonians 2:13
[ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you [ Some manuscripts because God chose you as his firstfruits] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
2 Thessalonians 2:10
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(they perish)
1 Thessalonians 2:16
in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last. [ Or them fully]
(this also means that the wrath of God can come on you if your not saved)
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Ephesians 2
Made Alive in Christ
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
2 Corinthians 2:15
For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
1 Corinthians 10:33
even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
1 Corinthians 5:5
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature [ Or that his body; or that the flesh] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ the Wisdom and Power of God ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
There is more, but thats enough. I added some comments in brackets.
This one is for you thinking you don't even have to believe in God.
Romans 12
13for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.[a]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
I think I understand where you are coming from. I think your attitude is that if we act like Christ, Only by following his second commandment this is enough. But its not enough. Jesus loved his father, like I love my real father, and my heavenly father. We would all love our fathers if the acted like the heavenly father, for it is in us to love and not hate. It is the deception of the enemy that makes us hate, and not believe in God.
It is said in John 3:16 that no-one enters heaven except through Jesus. I used to think, well what does that mean? If we act in a loving manor ad do his works, isn't that good enough?
Maybe Jesus is at the pearly gates and I can't enter unless I fake him out with a spin move first.
I ask if you have had an experience with the Holy Spirit because it is important for you. It is what changes you, and makes you not want to be like things of this world. That doesn't mean hate things of this world(people), but love them, just don't be like them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 7:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 10:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 218 of 466 (175708)
01-11-2005 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
01-10-2005 10:00 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
Ok, first off, I must clearly be missing something here. First you say in your first message:
In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.
Then go on to say:
And what behavior is it that is needed? Not all that much really, Love GOD and love others as you love yourself
But thats ok for you I guess, because you think that you don't need to acknowledge his existance to love him, but as I just wrote you, you do.
Romans 12
13for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.[a]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
You ask me:
And in that whole bunch of rhetoric, where was there anything that has anything to do with your mention of Baptism in the Holy Spirit?
and my answer was in my last message:
I ask if you have had an experience with the Holy Spirit because it is important for you. It is what changes you, and makes you not want to be like things of this world.
Did you read the whole thing, all the answers are there, if you really read it, and understand it.
Yes we are saved by grace, but in all those scriptures it explains how to recieve that grace. That is why your experience with the Holy Spirit is so important.
Yes anyone can be saved, anyone who has faith, repents, and acknowledges Jesus. Ask and ye shall recieve, for we are saved by faith.
The real question is, what is faith. Surely loving something you do not believe in is not faith.
Also, none of my reply was meant to be rhetoric, it was meant to be love.
joke: I read that in the end times there would be a lot of confusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 01-10-2005 10:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 10:39 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 222 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-11-2005 12:38 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 223 of 466 (175928)
01-11-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by jar
01-11-2005 10:39 AM


Re: Holy Spirit
And I'm not sure exactly what Bible you're reading but it appears to be the NIV and I think you want to really go back and check your reference. First, I believe it is Romans 10 not 12. Second, you show verses 13 and 14 as though they were one statement, one thought. They are not. Verse 13 ends one thought or paragraph with 14 begins another.
Yes it was Romans 10, typo.
Verse 13 ends, and yes 14 starts a new paragraph. Yes Paul was teaching people how to preach. What he said was how can they believe in someone they don't know?
He's teaching us that if we call on the name of the Lord (which is pretty hard to do if you don't believe in him) you can be saved.
Then he goes on to teach us the importance of telling people who he is, so that they may believe in him, then call on him.
That being said, it makes no difference the way it seemed it was phrased. The verses were not taken out of cantext at all, and I think you still missed the point.
It's telling his group of proselytizers what they should be doing.
No it's telling them what they should be doing and why.
Again, that has NOTHING to do with this thread. In addition, it is NOT what you asked. You asked if I had been Baptised in the Holy Spirit.
It has EVERYTHING to do with this thread. Haven't you read the verses in my reply. All of them have something to do with being saved through the Holy Spirit. I am not saying that is the only way to be saved, yet, I am stilling learning. I think that if you believe in God by faith, accept Jesus, and do his works, out of faith, you could be saved. But if you do all those things, he promises the Holy Spirit. So I wonder if you can actually be saved without having experienced the Holy Spirit.
Women who give birth can be saved, but they must continue their faith.
Children are saved, as they are the closest to God. In fact the bible teaches us to be like children in seeking God.
I want to know where your coming from. I want to know why you think that everyone is saved. If you had an experience with the Holy Spirit, but then went on to preach what your preaching, I would find it strange. If you did not experience the Holy Spirit, then I would understand why you felt the way you do. I used to feel the same way.
I find it immpossible to explain to someone what the Holy Spirit feels like, and what it means to me. I guess that is because it is individualized to each of us. We can only spread the love and hope that a person chooses to seek him, and call on him, and do the right things in the Lord's eyes.
And that is where I believe you are wrong. Read Matthew 25:31-46 and point out to me where belief is mentioned in it.
Two things about that.
First my own uneducated interpretation that God gave me through prayer. I feel that he is teaching us to take care of one another, and how important it is. All the people on the earth represent who God is. If we take care of each other, then we take care of Jesus, without actually taking care of Jesus himself. This does not mean that we do not have to believe in God, it just means that if we do not have an opportunity to take care of Jesus personally, then taking care of all his people is like the same thing. This also happens at his second coming, and may not include everyone who died already.
If you believe this to be true, then you believe Jesus's words to be true. This one little section of the bible does not mention faith, but it doesn not mention not having faith or believing. If you read the rest of Jesus's words it's plain to see his love for the father, and the importance of believing in him. The bible must be understood as a whole. It is the only way to fully understand God's word. It takes a long time to do this, I myself am still learning. There is no question the importance of believing in him to be saved.
Second. The NIV study bible says that it happens at the begining of an earthly millenial kingdom. It's purpose will be to determine who will allowed to enter the kingdom. The criterion for judgement will be the kind of treatment shown to the Jewish people ("these brothers of mine") during the preceding great tribulation period. Ultimately, how a person treats the Jewish people will reveal whether or not he is saved.
Their second translation of these verses is:
The judgement reffered to occurs at the great white throne at the end of the age. Its purpose will be to determine who will be saved and who will be consigned to eternal punishment in hell. The basis for judgement will be whether love is shown to Gods people.
Topic question (from me):
If Jesus teaches us to treat all the way would have treated him, and it is equivelant, and we don't do it in his name, then who taught us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 10:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 5:12 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 226 of 466 (176038)
01-11-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by jar
01-11-2005 5:12 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
The answer is, "Who cares?"
Well I do not want to speak for God, but I know how I would feel if I sent my only son to the world to die for everyones sins, in the very word I created, and there was a bunch of people running around not even believing in me.
It is the action, doing what is right. If you only do what is right because you were told to do it, or for some reward, then the whole point of Jesus message is lost.
No, Jesus revealed the ways of the father. The ways are to love one another, the way we love our selves. The principal there is to do what the father wants us to do, why? Because thats the way he created us to get along. It is the perfect setting for us to live in, and would bring peace and unity in the world. It is what all us desire deep down in our uncluttered hearts. We do it because we know its right, not just because the father says so.
But more importantly than that is to Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. So not believing in him hardly fits that description.
In case you think that all of our collective spirits=God, and he could not exist without us, that is wrong. we are only a representation of him, an image.
I think your biggest problem is that you are taking that small section of the bible and using it as an end all to describe the way we get saved.
Wherever you look in the Bible, whether it is John or Mark or Matthew, when you read the whole thing, time after time it comes back to what you do. It is not what you say, not what you profess that determines if you love GOD, it's what you do.
If we do it for the sake of goodness, and not in the name of God, we are not loving God. god will also tell us his purpose for us. He created us for a purpose, if go around doing whatever it is we want, even if it is good, it is not loving God. Loving God is being obedient to him.
Its your faith that determines if you love God. If you have true faith you will do the will of the father, and God will see that. If you do not believe in him, you do not have faith.
And how do you love GOD? Not through professing. Not through declaration. You show your love of GOD through acts, behavior.
And believing in him, just as I believe in my sons.
Totally immaterial. You have not yet shown how that is related to the topic in anyway.
The Holy Spirit coming into your life is God's gracious blessing on you when you show how true your faith is to him. When you believe in him, you get it.
If you just run around doing good works, you do not get blessed with the Holy Spirit, unless you believe in him, and do it for him. We do it not because he told us to, but because we love the father. I love the one who created me, I thank him for giving me life, my wife, my children, this forum, and you jar.
If you deny him, then you deny that he created you, and you could not love him, no matter how many good works you do. This is the root of the matter.
If it's the same thing, it's the same thing.
No, its like the same thing, it is not the same thing. It would be easy to take care of Jesus if you saw him, and knew he was the son of God. It's harder to take care of people who you do not know. Thats part of the reason why we do greater works than him. It means nothing to him, unless you do it out of love for God. Your love for God, makes you love others as yourself, its an unselfish act, and has little to do with going to hell or not. Once the Father speaks to you through his Holy Spirit, you don't worry about anything anymore, unless you let the enemy get to you.
please show where in there profession or belief is mentioned?
Please show where he explicitly says we do not need faith. Show me one part of the bible were it says that clearly. The rest of the bible seems to say that we need faith. Why all of a sudden we do not need it anymore?
One general note: The NIV plays pretty loose with the scriptures and adds a whole bunch of commentary to color the interpretation. I don't take it very seriously. It's more the Readers Digest version of the translations.
I wasn't to happy that my translation didn't match the NIV's but this is the first time I noticed that. The word is the word, and the translation is not the word of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 5:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 10:52 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 227 of 466 (176042)
01-11-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by wmscott
01-11-2005 5:06 PM


Re: We have to worship God in the way he wants, not the way we want.
Hello and God Bless wmscott.
Way to preach the Jehovah message.
Not everyone is wrong, and Jehovah's might just not be right either.
That whole reply seems to be entirely judgemental on other religions, hardly a way to love one another.

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 230 of 466 (176161)
01-12-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
01-11-2005 10:52 PM


Re: Holy Spirit
Pointless. Again, if you keep reading, all the sections you have brought up talking about faith or love go on to explain HOW you show love. And it is through actions, through works.
Yes that is the second most important thing. The first thing is to Love God.
If you look at the list in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is very clear about what he hopes folk will do. It would have been easy for him to add "Oh, and you have to believe in me", but he didn't. There is no need for him to specifically exclude it.
If you are so concerned about what Jesus would have us do, then you would put Love the Father at the top of the list.
That whole sermon on the Mount of Olives was about what will happen in the end times. It wasn't about who was Lord God, or why you should Love him. That was already widely accepted, and there was no need to point that out at that time. Can you imagine if Jesus would have said, yea, just go out and Love each other, doens't even matter if you believe in my Father or not.
Also, to put God first is the most important thing. Our love for him must exceed the love we have for each other. Of course we should love the one who created us greater than the creations. We should love the one who gives us life, and can take it away.
In Genesis 22 Abraham was put to the ultimate test. God asked him to sacrafice his son for God. This was a test to see if his love for God was greater than his love for anything else. Do you think he would have passed that test if he denyed the existance of God? If loving God isn't important or part of the word of God, then why did God do that to him?
LOL, Yeah, right. That's precious.
Like:
1 a : the same or nearly the same (as in appearance, character, or quantity) -- formerly used with as, unto, of b chiefly British : closely resembling the subject or original
Did I use the word wrong?
Suppose you found out that an aoemba denied you existed?
If I created the amoeba so that I could enjoy being with it, love it, give it free will, and then spend the rest of eternity with it, and it didn't acknowledge me, yea I'd be pissed at it.
I don't know what you do for a living, but if I make something to perform a task, and it doesn't work, I either redo it, or throw it out.
If you buy a puppy dog, and raise it and train it. Then you take it to the park and throw a stick for it to return, and the dog runs off into the woods, what do you do? Most likely you get a little pissed and go chase after the dog, then scold it. If he keeps doing it surely it doesn't make you happier. Eventually if he never listens and is a bad dog, you might just get rid of it.
We were created in his image, it is very easy to understand why God is a "pimp daddy" amoung other things. All we have to do is look at ourselves and we can understand God.
The Holy Spirit coming into your life is God's gracious blessing on you when you show how true your faith is to him. When you believe in him, you get it.
Fine, still, what does that have to do with this thread?
Well I'm not sure if you are saved unless you experience this. So I was wondering you have had that gracious experience. Why can't you just answer that question, who cares if it has nothing to do with this thread. Maybe I want to pray for you to have that experience, maybe I am praying for you already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 01-11-2005 10:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 01-12-2005 10:36 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 231 of 466 (176166)
01-12-2005 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-11-2004 4:31 PM


Loving God
So the question is, "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"
Love God with all your heart, first commandment. What happens if you break a commandment? You get saved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-11-2004 4:31 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by ohnhai, posted 01-12-2005 9:02 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 234 of 466 (176257)
01-12-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by ohnhai
01-12-2005 9:02 AM


Re: Loving God
They asked Jesus the 2 greatest commandments.
He responded:
Mark 12
29The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’(f) 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g]There is no commandment greater than these.
changed [f] to (f), seems the bracket f was causing some formating issues - The Queen
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-12-2005 22:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
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