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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 427 of 466 (812508)
06-17-2017 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Faith
06-16-2017 8:58 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

Jesus had to die in our place to pay for our deserved eternity in Hell so that we could be changed in these ways.

What a pile of utter stupidity. "our deserved eternity in hell" my arse. Thankfully, it's this sort of total bollox that is killing off your silly belief system. God killed his son so we could go to heaven - I mean, really.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 8:58 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 3:51 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 429 of 466 (812511)
06-17-2017 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by Faith
06-17-2017 3:51 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

Maybe you should read some of your old English Christian literature to find out what it's all about. How about Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress? I think that spells out the way of salvation.

I now exactly what it's all about - I had all that crap drummed into me from birth like everyone else did back then. It's all exactly what it looks like - a stack of made up nonsense exploited by powerful organisations to control a populous.

It's interesting how few people buy into it once the training from the cradle stops. It's also interesting to see how neutered the belief system has become in order to keep those few engaged. A medieval peasant wouldn't recognise it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 3:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 5:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 431 of 466 (812514)
06-17-2017 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by Faith
06-17-2017 5:03 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

A medieval peasant was generally not taught the truth, being under the thumb of Rome.

Yeh, yeh, only Faith knows the TRUTH about biology, geology, palaeontology, molecular biology, nuclear physics, astronomy and religion. What could possibly be wrong about this? The entire edifices of both science and religion are wrong - literally billions of people, scientists and non-scientists are wrong about the work and their beliefs but Faith is right?

Even if you hadn't been proven totally wrong in all aspects, on a pure numbers game, I'm not taking those odds.

As Jesus said "the gates of Hell will not prevail" against His church, it's going to last forever.

It's crumbling around your ears Faith. You're an anachronism, your belief system is evolving itself out of existence. Another dozen generations or so and there'll be nothing recognisable left of it. But that's not your problem.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 5:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 7:45 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 433 of 466 (812519)
06-17-2017 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Faith
06-17-2017 7:45 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

I know two sciences are wrong because I believe the Bible.


Many more than two Faith. Pretty much all of them. The point about science is that it all fits together - if it didn't we'd know something was wrong. It's this co-incidence of observation that kills you every time.

You think you can invent ad hoc explanations for geological records, radioactive isotope decay, astronomical time measurement, biological evolution, fossil records, tree ring growth, ice records, shells on mountains, plate techtonics, molecular genetics, archaelogy, anthropology and on and on. You can't because they all interact with each other and also prove you wrong individually.

You inflate that absurdly.

I haven't even started. Not only do you dismiss out of hand pretty much all of known science in favour of a redicuous iron-age myth, you also dismiss all other religions and belief systems too - including the vast majority of your very OWN Christian brothers.

It's an utterly ludicrous position.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 7:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 8:20 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 436 of 466 (812603)
06-18-2017 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by Faith
06-17-2017 8:20 AM


Re: Salvation is far more than a free pass
Faith writes:

True science is useful, but there is nothing whatever about the vaporings about the distant past, either the biological past or the geological past, that is useful at all

Right, geology isn't useful? Radioactive dating isn't useful, the evolution of antibiotics isn't useful, knowledge for its own sake isn't useful.....and on and on.

My god-daughter's life was saved by the medical cloning of pig tissue which was used to reconnect parts of her lower intentine after a traffic accident. The tissue wasn't rejected by her body because of the closeness of the pig genome to our own. Evolution did that. Hallelujah!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 8:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 7:33 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 439 of 466 (812624)
06-18-2017 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by Faith
06-18-2017 7:33 AM


Re: Side trip on the usefulness of the ToE and OE
Faith writes:

Ordinary everyday genetic change, or microevolution, is all you need to know about antibiotic resistance,

According to biblical teaching, species were immutable. Now they can evolve - but not too much, just enough to get them in and out of the Ark. Got it.

which has nothing to do with the ToE conjurings about the distant past,

Evolution has nothing to do with the ToE?

and you certainly don't need the theory of evolution to identify the genetic closeness of pig tissue to human -- that closeness exists without any notions of genetic descent entering the picture. Science does not need either the ToE or the OE to have the necessary knowledge in these cases.

And, of course it's the closeness of the relationship that proves the relationship, which confirms the ToE. It's perfect isn't it?

I hope your God-daughter is doing well.

So far so good - thanks to science.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 7:33 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 2:48 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 441 of 466 (812630)
06-18-2017 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Faith
06-18-2017 2:48 PM


Re: Side trip on the usefulness of the ToE and OE
Faith writes:

The Kind can't turn into anything but the Kind but it can vary a great deal within the Kind, what's the problem?

What's a 'kind'?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 2:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 3:43 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 444 of 466 (812634)
06-18-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by Faith
06-18-2017 3:43 PM


Re: Side trip on the usefulness of the ToE and OE
Faith writes:

A Kind is a Species.

Ok, let's drop the superfluos word then and just call them what everybody else outside religious dogma call them and stick with species.

So we both accept that species evolve. That's progress, your lot didn't allow that 200 years ago, now they do. I just wonder what the previous 10 years arguing about it were all about.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 3:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 7:39 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7297
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 446 of 466 (812648)
06-19-2017 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 445 by Faith
06-18-2017 7:39 PM


Re: Side trip on the usefulness of the ToE and OE
Faith writes:

I often use Kind instead of Species because Species is a term the ToE defines in ways that don't apply to what I think a Kind is.

If you have a definition of species that is different to biology, then 'kind' does not equal species.

So what is a 'kind' according to you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Faith, posted 06-18-2017 7:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by jar, posted 06-19-2017 7:00 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 448 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 7:50 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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