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Author
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Topic: Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 37 of 466 (147158)
10-04-2004 10:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
10-04-2004 2:46 AM
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
I know that you are setting me up, but... Honestly, there is no desire to set you up but rather all I'm trying to do is explain my beliefs and position.
Again, infinitely greater. Greater than the difference between a human and an amoeba. I tend to agree, the difference is infintely greater than between a human and an amoeba. I happen to believe that GOD created the universe, has an inate understanding of the actual relattionship between gravity and all the other forces. Would you say that is accurate?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Phat, posted 10-04-2004 2:46 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 38 by Phat, posted 10-04-2004 12:06 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 39 of 466 (147259)
10-04-2004 6:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
10-04-2004 12:06 PM
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Okay, so we have a being that is far greater from us than we are from an amoeba, that created the whole universe, that inately understands all of the rules that govern this universe and in all of its complexity. I simply cannot believe that any such being would condemn folk to hell simply because they denied he existed. Such a being might get a chuckle out of it but that is about the greatest reaction. I realize that there are many who disagree, but for me, any such exclusionary acts would be far more likely from some bling-bling pimp-daddy selling dreams on the corner.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by Phat, posted 10-04-2004 12:06 PM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Mike, in the discussion with PB we were speaking specifically of denying GOD's existence. The question was, "Can someone who denies GOD's very existence be saved?" IMHO, the answer is yes. Here is a section from the 1979 BCP that I believe covers the subject well.
All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.
The really important part is "... by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world...". For the sins of the whole world. Not for the sins of christians. Not for the sins of believers. Not for the sins of the few, but for the sins of the whole world. Christ died for the sins of the world. Everyone. All of us, sinner and saint, believer and non-believer. Just as someone's belief in the existence or non-existence of GOD has no bearing on whether or not GOD exists, belief has no bearing on the fact that Christ died for the forgivness of our sins. Christ died for those who believe in him, and those who do not. We, as Christians, are commanded to remember that sacrifice, but the gift was freely given to all.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 10-04-2004 6:39 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 316 by Phat, posted 11-14-2011 3:15 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Actually Mike, I was pretty sure I gave the sources. Let me see?
quote:
Here is a section from the 1979 BCP that I believe covers the subject well.
All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.
Yup, sourced that sucker.
Cos if it ain't biblical - you don't seriously expect me to take it over Christ's words do you? Nope Mike, I have never expected you to accept anything I say. But are you saying that Jesus wasn't a full and sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the world?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 48 of 466 (147306)
10-04-2004 9:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by dpardo
10-04-2004 9:04 PM
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Well, as I've pointed out a few times before, Matthew 25 pretty well covers that.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by dpardo, posted 10-04-2004 9:04 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by dpardo, posted 10-04-2004 9:15 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 51 of 466 (147311)
10-04-2004 9:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by dpardo
10-04-2004 9:15 PM
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Not exactly. There is certainly an emotional content to love, but the emotion is little without the behaviors that go with it. As my mommy used to say, "Actions speak louder than words". The important part of Matthew 25 is the questions that the two parties asked.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? They are completely confused, honestly puzzled. They did not do the things mentioned to curry favor, they did not do the things specifically for reward; instead they did them because it is what should be done.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Those rejected too are honestly puzzled. They know they always did what was expected of them and would certainly done anything for Jesus. They were among the chosen. They acknowledged Jesus and really asked him, "Hey bossman, when did we see you needing help and NOT aid you? Come on, you know we were there for you all the way. You can't get on us since you we would have done those things if we found YOU in prison, hungry, thirsty or naked.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by dpardo, posted 10-04-2004 9:15 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by dpardo, posted 10-05-2004 1:40 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Why don't you expect me to accept anything you say Jar? I hope no one simply accepts what I say. That is the old "from authority" trap. I hope that everyone will take the information I provide, consider it, check their own sources and make up their own mind. BCP is the Book of Common Prayer, a wonderful source that I've been exploring for many years yet still find fresh.
He says ask anything in prayer, and if it be according to God's will, it will be added unto you. How can people be healed if they doubt and don't believe? How can they receive? Do you think GOD only notices us when we ask for things?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by mike the wiz, posted 10-04-2004 9:41 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 60 of 466 (147369)
10-05-2004 12:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
10-05-2004 12:52 AM
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Why do you think GOD would even care if someone doesn't believe in him? Would you get upset if an amoeba said you don't exist?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 12:52 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 1:05 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 62 of 466 (147374)
10-05-2004 1:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
10-05-2004 1:05 AM
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Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Do you think GOD would be more forgiving than a human?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 1:05 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 458 by Phat, posted 11-03-2017 9:40 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 63 of 466 (147376)
10-05-2004 1:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
10-05-2004 1:05 AM
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An interesting aside
The BCP predates the King James Bible and was first complied during the reign of Henry 8th. It was both religious in nature (to bring uniformity to the various translations of the missal in use) but also very political. If you or any others are interested in learning about it, please start a thread where we can discuss it as it's an interesting subject.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 1:05 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 65 of 466 (147383)
10-05-2004 2:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 64 by dpardo
10-05-2004 1:40 AM
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If you look at those who are rejected in Matthew 25, I think you will agree that from their reaction, they certainly would be among those saying they love Jesus. But their behavior spoke for them. It's very much like others that profess a love of GOD, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Bakker, Gene Scott, Jimmy Swaggart, Bob Larson, Robert Tilton, W.V. Grant and who can forget Troy Snowdon. That line up of crooks, liars and bigots all profess belief but does anyone believe they are more than swine and whale spit? Love is shown, not professed.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by dpardo, posted 10-05-2004 1:40 AM | | dpardo has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 4:13 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 67 of 466 (147448)
10-05-2004 10:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
10-05-2004 4:13 AM
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Re: Speaking of Love and forgiveness...
So you believe that GOD might be able to forgive people like Swindoll, Bakker, Falwell, Scott, and the rest of the liars, bigots, and crooks? If that is the case, if GOD can forgive such really, really horrible people, why would anyone think for even a second that GOD would not embrace and rejoice in your typical atheist?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 4:13 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 73 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 11:47 AM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 71 of 466 (147457)
10-05-2004 11:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 70 by nator
10-05-2004 10:48 AM
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Gosh, jar, what are your thoughts on L. Ron Hubbard? Actually, I remember back in the late 50's or 60's when Ron wrote a thought piece in one of the Science Fiction monthlies (I think it was Astounding but it might well have been F&SF) about how to really get rich. "Start a religion", he said, "Keep it exclusive, secretive, and move wealth from the bottom to the top. Tie it into some mumbo-jumbo that sounds scientific; you can even include some realy science since the members will be too dumb to tell the difference. And it's all tax free."
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by nator, posted 10-05-2004 10:48 AM | | nator has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 72 of 466 (147461)
10-05-2004 11:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 69 by nator
10-05-2004 10:41 AM
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OT but what the hell.
Oh, knowing you I bet you provoked it somehow. 
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by nator, posted 10-05-2004 10:41 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 74 by nator, posted 10-05-2004 5:29 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 76 of 466 (147696)
10-06-2004 1:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 75 by almeyda
10-06-2004 1:03 AM
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Verse 32 says And he shall separate them one from another. This is about the seperation of the saved and the unsaved. Well let's step through it.
quote:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
So verses 32 to 34 do show separating those saved from those who are not saved.
You actually think Christ will bring athiests or satanics into his flock? Sure. That's what Jesus said. The tale goes on to show just what criteria will be used.
quote:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Is there anything in there that deals with what they believe, what they profess, what they say?
Verse 41 clearly talks about the judgement of sin. Those who lived in sin and without Christ will be sent into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil. Is that so? Let's look? If you read the rest it says...
quote:
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Where does that mention sin, belief, or anything other than "42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." Behavior. And not what most think of as sin, but rather a failure to follow the two Great Commandments.
Love GOD and Love others as you love yourself. It really is as simple as that.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by almeyda, posted 10-06-2004 1:03 AM | | almeyda has replied |
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