Who can be saved? A Christian perspective

And I'm not sure exactly what Bible you're reading but it appears to be the NIV and I think you want to really go back and check your reference. First, I believe it is Romans 10 not 12. Second, you show verses 13 and 14 as though they were one statement, one thought. They are not. Verse 13 ends one thought or paragraph with 14 begins another.In Romans 10 Paul is talking to his congregation about what they should be doing to spread the word. He is acting as a bureauacrat, an organizer. And he is talking about the actions they need to take. Actions. Works.Look at the paragraph that starts at 14. It's telling his group of proselytizers what they should be doing. Again, that has NOTHING to do with this thread. In addition, it is NOT what you asked. You asked if I had been Baptised in the Holy Spirit. And that is where I believe you are wrong. Read Matthew 25:31-46 and point out to me where belief is mentioned in it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think you left some words out but I believe I understand what you are asking.The answer is, "Who cares?"It is the action, doing what is right. If you only do what is right because you were told to do it, or for some reward, then the whole point of Jesus message is lost.Wherever you look in the Bible, whether it is John or Mark or Matthew, when you read the whole thing, time after time it comes back to what you do. It is not what you say, not what you profess that determines if you love GOD, it's what you do. I've laid that out pretty thoroughly. I know everyone is saved because that is what GOD said. I know that the gift was freely and unconditionaly given. It was not given to only a few, but to all mankind.The one thing that was asked was that you not screw up too badly. Try your best to love GOD and love others as you love yourself.And how do you love GOD? Not through professing. Not through declaration. You show your love of GOD through acts, behavior. Totally immaterial. You have not yet shown how that is related to the topic in anyway. Okay. If it's the same thing, it's the same thing. The best information in the Bible relating to what exactly happens at the second coming and judgement is Matthew 25:31-46. Again, please show where in there profession or belief is mentioned?REMEMBER, in Matthew 25 Jesus is speaking to his followers. All of them, sheep and goat alike were followers and had professed Jesus. The goats are shocked. They really believe they should be in the special group. The challenge him saying "Hey Bossman, when did we deny you any of those things?" When the second coming actually happens I imagine that what you'll see is that almost all the goats are Preachers. Christian Preachers. Televangelists. The goats will be folk like Jerry Falwell, Benny Hinn, Pat Roberston, Jim Bakker, Gene Scott, Oral Roberts, Bob Larson, Henry Lyons, Robert Tillman and the like.One general note: The NIV plays pretty loose with the scriptures and adds a whole bunch of commentary to color the interpretation. I don't take it very seriously. It's more the Readers Digest version of the translations.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Pointless. Again, if you keep reading, all the sections you have brought up talking about faith or love go on to explain HOW you show love. And it is through actions, through works.If you look at the list in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is very clear about what he hopes folk will do. It would have been easy for him to add "Oh, and you have to believe in me", but he didn't. There is no need for him to specifically exclude it. LOL, Yeah, right. That's precious. Well, I've covered this many, many times so I gues one more time won't hurt.You're GOD sounds more like a bling-bling pimp daddy selling crack on the corner, one that gets upset if someone disrespects him. I can't imagine such a picayune diety.Suppose you found out that an aoemba denied you existed? Fine, still, what does that have to do with this thread?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If you read anything I write you will find that I always include Love GOD. But how do you love GOD? Is it by profession? Not according to the Bible. The way you love GOD is by your actions, how you behave.Again, read Matthew 25:31-46. I keep going back to this because it is one of the clearest, most complete expositions on the subject. The sheep are surprised because they never realized that they were doing things for Jesus when they did things for others. Even if they had not known about Jesus, those actions would have been loving him.Let me ask you a question. Have you read the Narnia series? No! Wrong! It is a coomon mistake though. That is making GOD in our image. Well, in addition to being off topic it's none of your business.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The same way I handle the next two lines. Do you believe that if you don't play with poisonous snakes and drink lye you're not a believer?Look at the rest of the Bible. If you've read this thread you will have seen my reasoning. Basically, throughout the Bible Jesus explains time after time that it is not your professions that determine belief but what you do. Actions speak louder than words.Read the passages I've included throughout this thread. I think you'll find that the Bible supports my position, not yours.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But the gift of forgiveness was freely given. Christ died for all mankind, not for believers, not for Christians. Paul in Ephesians and in other places re-enforces and the quote you picked is one I often use. It is saying that the intent of works is as important as the works themselves.The section of Hebrews you quoted was yet another letter to a specific audience. It is not a broad proclamation or gospel. It's was written to a known community of Christians being lead by Timothy. You must take it as a communication between members of a sect.On the otherhand, if you look at the oft quoted passages from Matthew 25:31-46 you see no mention of belief. In fact it is implicit in that section that many who do believe will not be among the saved.Christ died for all mankind, believer and unbeliever.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Read the rest. You folk always try to cherry pick the passages without looking at the context.John 3:19-21 Here it once again returns to the actions as opposed to the professions. As my old momma used to say, "Actions speak louder than words."In addition, the condemnation in John 3:18 is explained fully in the next few lines. It is not a condemnation to hell or anything of the sort. Rather it is yet another affirmation of the constant theme of Jesus that you will be judged on what you do, not what you say.No, it's not atheists that need to worry about salvation (of course they don't anyway) but rather Christians. It's the believers that will be spending their time in Hell, not the non-believers. It's folk like Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jim Bakker, Benny Hinn, Fred Phelps, Jimmy Swaggart, Bob Larson, Bobby Tilton and Paul Crouch that will be lined up with the goats while the atheists walk in the front door.Oh I believe Jesus words. Too bad so many Christians don't read them.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We can sit and quotemine the Bible 'till the cows come home. You know that any possible point of view can be supported simply by picking verses from the Bible selectively. I can sit here and ask you how you ignore Matthew 25 which is without a doubt the definitive passage on what will happen re salvation and from Jesus himself, but that will achieve little.But let's stop and backup for a second.Why would GOD care if you believed in him?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, thank you sir. IMHO if more folk would concentrate on love and just do little things the world would be a much nicer place.And it really is that simple.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't.AbE:However, IMHO that is all that Jesus ever asked folk to do. So in that sense, I would say it is the essence of Christianity.This message has been edited by jar, 02-18-2005 18:43 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, to be a Christian you need to believe in Jesus, his death and resurection. That much is a given. But that is not what this thread is talking about; here we're talking about salvation.Christ died for mankind. It is a gift from GOD, freely given to all. It is not just to Christians, not just to professing believers. Instead it's a gift for everyone who follows the two Great Commandments, love God and love others as you love yourself.The '... whole sin in the garden stuff' IMHO is totally misused by many Christians. Like much of the Bible, it is a parable. It is the description of what sets man apart from the other animals, the fact that we do know good from evil and so have both the responsibility and the capability to do the former. The Virgin Birth is an article of faith for Christians pertaining to the birth of Jesus. But even among Christians, I don't know of anything in the Bible that says you'd be damned if you didn't believe in it. It is a rather extraordinary claim. Bad folk will be damned. Exactly what that means is as unknown as the first moments of the Big Bang. But I doubt it will be pleasant. It may only be a total cessation. My personal belief is that it will be a role reversal. Hitler will become a gay, Hassidic Jew in Poland during the 1930's. I agree. And I also don't reject Buddhist teachings and practices. If you've followed many of my posts you will have noticed I strongly urge Christians and others to study Buddhism as well as the teachings of Mecius, Confucius and others. Partly through accident of birth. Had I been born somewhere else it's very likely I'd be a different religion. But after many years of study covering many of the pathways to God I have found little in Christianity that conflicts with other moral systems and nothing in the others that I did not find in Christ.I do have a problem though with those Christians who preach a religion of exclusion.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sure. That's what Jesus said IMHO. I don't know if we'll have time enough in this thread to work through all of that but let's give it a try.Jesus' life and death is a message. It is GOD explaining things to humans. It is not the fact that Jesus died, it is not the fact of Jesus birth that are the key. They are part of the message. GOD forgives and loves. The message was played out in terms and actions of the period, as something those contemporary would understand. Death, even crucifixion, was not unusual. In fact, on the same day, at least two others were crucified. Resurrection though WAS unusual. It is the message of hope, of continuance, of salvation. We were talking about total cessation. By definition it would not be unpleasant, but it would by definition also not be pleasant. Cessation is simply the state of "Not Being".

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Great question and I think I've covered it in this thread. One place was in Message 25. Later I got into a longer discussion with Phatboy beginning at Message 31.Look those over and if you have other questions, maybe we should start another thread on whether or not atheists can love GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree with what you said but that does not mean that GOD does not have other paths, other tactics for speaking to people.Remember, Jesus death is only one moment in the story. For thirty-three years before that he taught and set an example. We tend to forget the part about Jesus life and teachings in the magnitude of the crucifixion.There are also examples, IMHO, of GOD sending messages that did not entail death. One good example is Buddha, another Confucious. GOD speaks in the idiom and context of the day and the audience. The story and experiences of Jesus would resonate within the community of the day, with contemporary folk. But I do not believe that limits GOD to speaking in only that idiom.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Possible. Or it could simply be, as I said, that GOD speaks in the idiom and context of the day and the audience. Whether, Jesus, Buddha, Mencius, Confucius or Mohamud, is it possible that GOD uses the tools available?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion