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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 451 of 466 (813102)
06-23-2017 8:08 AM


Back On Topic! Salvation NOT evolution
The topic is about salvation...not evolution.

jar writes:

MHO, as a Christian, anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD. In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.
So to others out there, whether you are Christian, one of the other Judaic faiths, agnostic or even atheist, what do you think? Who can be saved and how do you support your position?

ramoss writes:

From a Jewish perspective, the concept of Salvation is for this world, not the next one, so the Christian concept of 'being saved' is absent and unneeded.
From an atheistic point of view, it is a load of superstition, based on belief in an imaginary friend.


jar then offers support for Matthew 25 and his belief that salvation is based upon what we DO rather than WHO we believe in:
jar writes:

if GOD reached out to the Jews directly, the Gentiles through Jesus, why couldn't GOD reach out to the Muslims through Mohamud, Asians through Confucious, Buddha and Mencius and Mormons through Joseph Smith.
Look at Matthew 25. Where does it show any requirement for profession of Jesus, knowledge of Jesus, belief in Jesus or even an intent to acknowledge Jesus? In fact, where does it show a requirement to profess GOD, acknowledge GOD, worship GOD or even an intent to Love GOD?
Matthew 25 is very clear. No interpretation is needed. It says if you have done it for the least of these, you've done it for GOD. It does not say Christians are saved and all others damned. It says those that have loved GOD will be saved even if they never intended to do so.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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jar
Member
Posts: 31776
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 452 of 466 (813112)
06-23-2017 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Thugpreacha
06-23-2017 8:08 AM


Re: Back On Topic! Salvation NOT evolution
There are many other such passages, Luke 4 as an example:

Luke 4 writes:

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

Which angered his listeners just as telling Christians today that they are not special or chosen over the Muslims and Atheists and Agnostics and Buddhists and Hindus and Satanists and animists angers the Christians.

and Luke six:

Luke 6 writes:

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

that repeats the admonition that it is behavior not belief that is of significance.

Much that the stories claim Jesus said is not reflected in many Christian churches.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 453 of 466 (813164)
06-23-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Boof
06-22-2017 11:07 PM


Re: Side trip on the usefulness of the ToE and OE
So using your super sleuthing geology skills how do you identify which granite intrusions are Mesoproterozoic and which are not?
....

Which is why major multinational mining companies spend money on radiometric dating, and indeed often keep the results confidential to give themselves a competitive advantage.

Nice point. I may have asked this question before, but how is it that you have only 96 posts? This one was a gem and I would like to see more.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33905
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 454 of 466 (813203)
06-24-2017 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Boof
06-22-2017 11:07 PM


Re: Side trip on the usefulness of the ToE and OE
I'm aware that since the timing in Old Earth theory is believed, that dating methods are actually used for such purposes. You at least give a reasonable justification for that, saying there is no other way to tell where the copper is located, but I'm afraid that doesn't do it for me. I don't know what sort of evidence might be mustered in this case, but your statement alone isn't enough.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Boof
Member (Idle past 810 days)
Posts: 97
From: Australia
Joined: 08-02-2010


(1)
Message 455 of 466 (813300)
06-25-2017 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by Faith
06-24-2017 10:01 AM


Re: Side trip on the usefulness of the ToE and OE
... but I'm afraid that doesn't do it for me. I don't know what sort of evidence might be mustered in this case, but your statement alone isn't enough.

Well that's easy to answer - no scientific evidence will ever be enough for you Faith. Even when the evidence against your views becomes overwhelming your response is to say that you can't explain why but you know that it's wrong.

But I'm not looking for any 'Eureka moment' from you, I just want you (and other creationists) to stop saying ridiculous things like:

True science is useful, but there is nothing whatever about the vaporings about the distant past, either the biological past or the geological past, that is useful at all....

Seem fair?

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 Message 454 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 10:01 AM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 33905
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 456 of 466 (813307)
06-26-2017 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by Boof
06-25-2017 10:18 PM


Re: Side trip on the usefulness of the ToE and OE
Of course not. I asked you for evidence, where is it?

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 457 of 466 (813308)
06-26-2017 1:37 AM


Get Back To The Topic
Would everyone please stop this off topic discussion?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 458 of 466 (822893)
11-03-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
10-05-2004 1:07 AM


Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
jar writes:

Do you think GOD would be more forgiving than a human?

I hope so.

Perhaps I am wrong to expect it though.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 10-05-2004 1:07 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 9:58 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31776
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 459 of 466 (822899)
11-03-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Thugpreacha
11-03-2017 9:40 AM


Re: Minnesota Phats and Jar Jar Blinks
Again Phat, it is almost like you did not read past that post. There is a whole bunch of discussion on that very topic in messages that followed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 460 of 466 (822987)
11-04-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by jar
11-03-2017 9:58 AM


Lost In Ignorance Or Saved From It?
I read the rest of this topic. We argued the same things back then as we do now. Some good conversations, though.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 9:58 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13384
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 461 of 466 (863203)
09-22-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
10-03-2004 12:41 AM


jar writes:

Look at Matthew 25. Where does it show any requirement for profession of Jesus, knowledge of Jesus, belief in Jesus or even an intent to acknowledge Jesus? In fact, where does it show a requirement to profess GOD, acknowledge GOD, worship GOD or even an intent to Love GOD?

Matthew 25 is very clear. No interpretation is needed. It says if you have done it for the least of these, you've done it for GOD. It does not say Christians are saved and all others damned. It says those that have loved GOD will be saved even if they never intended to do so.

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You say that nowhere is mentioned acknowledgment of Jesus or God, correct?

  • Who is the son of man?
  • who is the King?
    If the sheep and goats judgment happened tomorrow, and one was to simply walk away from the assembly, what would happen to them?

    It appears to me that simply being gathered before the King implies a necessity of acknowledgment.

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by jar, posted 10-03-2004 12:41 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 462 by jar, posted 09-22-2019 12:13 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31776
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 462 of 466 (863204)
    09-22-2019 12:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 461 by Thugpreacha
    09-22-2019 11:39 AM


    Phat writes:

    You say that nowhere is mentioned acknowledgment of Jesus or God, correct?

    No Phat, that is not what I have said. There are numerous acknowledgements of both Jesus and God in the stories; often conflicting or mutually exclusive acknowledgements. We've been over this a brazillion times. The description of the God in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God in Genesis 2&3. In the New Testament Jesus performs miracles but tries to keep it a secret that he did anything but in other stories the Jesus who performs miracles to show he is divine; two mutually exclusive descriptions.

    Yes, in the story all are brought before a judge. It does not say who the son of man is. It does not say who the King is beyond the fact that it is the person who will judge.

    Phat writes:

    If the sheep and goats judgment happened tomorrow, and one was to simply walk away from the assembly, what would happen to them?

    In the story they are gathered, they have no option to simply walk away.

    Phat it says is what is actually written; only what is written. Anything else is just some modern human creation.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 461 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-22-2019 11:39 AM Thugpreacha has responded

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    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13384
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 463 of 466 (863211)
    09-22-2019 4:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 462 by jar
    09-22-2019 12:13 PM


    The Idea Of A Creator In General Is Rational
    Well, my point in prodding your old quote with a stick was to make it clear that I disagree with your assessment that a person does not have to acknowledge God (or more specifically Jesus) in order to become saved. Granted, I have always referred to you as the Apostle To The Atheists and will admit that your arguments are sound. I was discussing some of what we have discussed with my young friend who is in training (by God, not by his own desire) to be a future Pastor. First, a word about him. He is nearly homeless and has been poor his whole life. He works (if you could call it work--they dont pay him) at an inner city ministry cooking at a soup kitchen for the homeless. (The Sloppy Agape Soup Kitchen). He thus does exactly what we always talk about what Jesus commands us to do. I have no doubt that if there is a Heavenly Reward for doing such things, he will receive it. This morning we studied the book of James over the phone.

    In James 2, we studied the idea of partiality. I am guilty of this, as I would tend to take the suave young teenage friend to church yet ignore the homeless guy who smelled bad. I've been working on this, but in my mind I need Gods help...its human nature to be more attracted to some causes and less attracted to others. You always claim that we should throw God away. And yet James says

    James 3:13-18

    Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
    NKJV

    James 4:1-5 writes:

    Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain,"The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
    NKJV

    Now granted you could make an argument that the Spirit either dwells in us(all of us) or not and that this in and of itself shouldn't matter as far as what we are charged to do. But what do you think of the whole idea--"friendship with the world is enmity with God"?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 462 by jar, posted 09-22-2019 12:13 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 464 by jar, posted 09-22-2019 7:57 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31776
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 464 of 466 (863212)
    09-22-2019 7:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 463 by Thugpreacha
    09-22-2019 4:20 PM


    Re: The Idea Of A Creator In General Is Rational
    Read James. Actually stop and read James.

    It is all about behavior, about fighting the good fight, about running the race. It's not about doing stuff to gain credit or honor or even acknowledgement but simply because they need to be done.

    The stuff about spirit is irrelevant. It is simply a distraction.

    Do what needs to be done simply because it needs to be done.

    We've been down this path a brazillion times before Phat. It's not the showy things, not the seen things, it's the little things like holding a door open, reaching for something on the high shelf for someone, taking the shopping carts back to their place, bringing in the neighbors trash cans; little things that no one even remembers you doing.

    It's not about rewards or praise or thanks or anything except doing what you can do because it needs doing.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 463 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-22-2019 4:20 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 465 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-23-2019 2:46 AM jar has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13384
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 465 of 466 (863215)
    09-23-2019 2:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 464 by jar
    09-22-2019 7:57 PM


    Re: The Idea Of A Creator In General Is Rational
    But you didnt answer my question,
    quote:
    James 4:4 and 5----?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 464 by jar, posted 09-22-2019 7:57 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 466 by jar, posted 09-23-2019 7:05 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
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