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Author Topic:   Why this story and not another?
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 1 of 52 (48284)
08-01-2003 5:30 AM


The following link points to some American Indian creation myths.

http://www.southerncrossreview.org/19/creation.htm

After reading this, I was totally confused. These stories are in no way in accordance with what I was brought up with ... erm, with that up with which I was brought, sorry about that. Now, my knowledge of Christian theology is a bit rusty, I must admit, so I'd like to ask the creationists among us to fill me in on the reasons why these Indian myths are totally off the mark, as I expect they are.

Seriously now, I honestly would like to hear some solid reasons from creationists why one should not believe these alternative stories of how things came to be. There is really something at stake here, because if I don't hear anything from the creationists, I will be forced to take that as an admission that they cannot tell which story to believe, the Indians' or theirs.

So how about it?


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DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 2 of 52 (48341)
08-01-2003 3:07 PM


you mean you want to hear from Christens not from creationist. because someone who believed this would also be a creationist. I am not one now But I was. and this is Basically one of the first things that turned me away from Christianity. that fact is what makes this "Holy great book" more substantial the Great Indian and Greek "myths"? if these are myths and false how can you say the Bible is the truth? your Parents and your church told you its true? to me thats NO reason to believe. No it doesn't work the same with science. Because science has facts to back it up the bible doesn't
Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 3 of 52 (48344)
08-01-2003 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by DC85
08-01-2003 3:07 PM


"you mean you want to hear from Christens not from creationist."

Well, actually I would like to hear from Christian creationists, because the Indian myths deal with creation. But since most of the creationists here are in fact Christians (or derivatives thereof), I thought I'd not bother mentioning 'Christian'. But strictly speaking you're right of course, because I'm contrasting Christian myth with other myths. (It would be fun though if an Aztec would reply.)

"that fact is what makes this "Holy great book" more substantial the Great Indian and Greek "myths"? if these are myths and false how can you say the Bible is the truth?"

Basically, that is what I'm trying to find out.

Cheers.

By the way, could you remove the chewing gum from under your shift key?


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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 4 of 52 (48355)
08-01-2003 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
08-01-2003 5:30 AM


I'm not a Christian (I'm Jewish) and I don't have any problems with science, actually I thank God for very fact that we have all sort of sciences and scientists. But I think that Bible contains all of the important information about the world that we live in. Including process of creation. However, you must go way beyond litteral interpretation to extract that info. Just think for a second about this equation: E=mc^2. 5 characters (well i have to use 6 on the computer for the square thing). Underneath these 5 characters are pages and pages of mathematical formulas and underneath those formulas are bookshelfs (or even libraries) of books containing most of the secrets of time, space and matter. All fit into this lousy 5 characters which don't mean ANYTHING to a person who knows nothing about physics.

So to me your question sounds like why belive in E=mc^2 and not in E=ELMO, Well, since you can make your own decisions, read libraries of books on one subject and libraries of books on the other subject. Then you won't need to ask this question.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 5 of 52 (48370)
08-02-2003 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by THEONE
08-01-2003 8:53 PM


the Problem I have with religion is that you are Brought up to Belive it and most do without a 2nd thought. to me thats wrong you should test it and explore. as was said why is this the ONLY way to be? why not the Indian Religion? why be Jewish or anything else? what makes you be that? because your Parents told you to? to me that is a VERY stupid reason. I myself was brought Up a catholic(christen). but I always felt I was in a little box. this can't be THE WAY it is and the Only way. I like to now call myself an Agnostic though most People will see my Views as More atheist. the Reason I chose Agnostic is Because I say there might be a God but I highly doubt it. I however will ask you why you Believe there is a God. and will Challenge your reason if it comes up. (note I use caps in the Middle to symbolize voice changes since I can't really speak to you alot of people do this)
This message is a reply to:
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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 6 of 52 (48374)
08-02-2003 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by DC85
08-02-2003 12:37 AM


you should test it and explore.

Couldn't agree with you more.

why be Jewish or anything else? what makes you be that? because your Parents told you to? to me that is a VERY stupid reason.

What makes me be that? I'll give you some of my background to answer that question. I was born and raised in Communist USSR. Throughout my school years I was brought up under communist slogans such as "Religion is opium for the people" and anti-religious doctrines of that sort. My parents (and most of the family) are not religious and I don't blame them. My father was 8 years old when Jews were burned in the ovens and gassed en masse in gas chambers during Holocust. That pretty much ended his religious experience. (as for many others in my family). My parents neither spoke of God nor did they want to hear about Him (even now). Whatever Holocost didn't finish, communists took care of. If you circumcise you jewish kid you might get a visit from the infamous KGB and next day you are visiting prison or getting a one way ticket to Siberian Labor camp for 10 years (no court, no lawer, just the sentence). So believe me when I tell you that no-one spoon-fed me any religious stuff.

Only when I came to US, did I start to learn what being Jewsih is all about. What it believes and what it teaches. By that time I already had a college degree (from Russian University) and belive me, I didn't take any concepts based on blind faith. But also I was able to bypass the seemingly childrens stories in the Bible to get practical and valuable lessons. And even now, while I continue to study my religion, I hold a principle "don't belive it until you try it and see that it works (or makes sense)". For some reason all the Rabbies that I know don't even have slitest problem with my principal and actually incourage it.

So that is my take on things, don't mean to sound like I'm preaching but you asked a personal question and I gave you a personal answer. I hope you take it just as that.

I myself was brought Up a catholic but I always felt I was in a little box

Funny thing. I felt just the same about being brought up the way I was. To me religion was a way out of that box. Go figure....

I however will ask you why you Believe there is a God. and will Challenge your reason if it comes up.

I'll put it this way... The god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in him either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by DC85, posted 08-02-2003 12:37 AM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by DC85, posted 08-02-2003 5:58 PM THEONE has responded
 Message 8 by Rrhain, posted 08-03-2003 12:23 AM THEONE has responded

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 7 of 52 (48407)
08-02-2003 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by THEONE
08-02-2003 3:34 AM


quote:
I'll put it this way... The god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in him either

I am pretty sure the Jewish and the christen God are the same. Just Christens added to the religon.........

als sorry about what I said. its just Most people I know that are into religon are Spoon fed it. I still don't understand how you can turn from facts(and Believe all of the Jewish Religon) but thats just me. I would rather go with Facts and have Blank spaces then have something that has 0 facts

[This message has been edited by DC85, 08-02-2003]


This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 8 of 52 (48426)
08-03-2003 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by THEONE
08-02-2003 3:34 AM


TheOne writes:

quote:
I'll put it this way... The god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in him either.

There's an old joke:

What's the difference between a theist and an atheist?

A theist claims that of the 1,000 religions out there, 999 of them are wrong.

An atheist doesn't make an exception for that last one.

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 52 (48431)
08-03-2003 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by DC85
08-02-2003 5:58 PM


quote:
I am pretty sure the Jewish and the christen God are the same.

Christians will swear this is true, but the two religions portray vastely different Gods.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 811 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 10 of 52 (48436)
08-03-2003 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by THEONE
08-01-2003 8:53 PM


TheOne writes:

I think that Bible contains all of the important information about the world that we live in. Including process of creation.


Would you like to comment on the importance of the Firmament?

How about commenting on the process by which a female is cloned from a male?

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by THEONE, posted 08-01-2003 8:53 PM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 11 of 52 (48437)
08-03-2003 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rrhain
08-03-2003 12:23 AM


What's the difference between a theist and an atheist?
A theist claims that of the 1,000 religions out there, 999 of them are wrong.
An atheist doesn't make an exception for that last one.

Never did you hear me say, nor will I ever say that any of the religions are wrong. I just state which one I believe in.

As far as atheists..., they are 100% correct(from their point of view). After all God is not completely revealed, yet. Why believe?


This message is a reply to:
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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 12 of 52 (48439)
08-03-2003 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by DC85
08-02-2003 5:58 PM


I am pretty sure the Jewish and the christen God are the same

The concepts of God's essence are completely different. Also, the way of studying the Scriptures differs. And there are Volumes and Volumes of additional texts and scriptures which Christianity disregarded and substituted with Jesus.

als sorry about what I said.

You don't have to be sorry at all. You didn't say anything wrong. I do appreciate your appology though.

I still don't understand how you can turn from facts(and Believe all of the Jewish Religon) but thats just me

I never turned away from facts. I think that science is the key to understanding our physical universe and what's in it. And I do have alot of problems understanding alot of things in the Bible. However, I will not disregard the whole thing (Bible) because to me there is just as many things that do make sense.
As someone said, "The inability to understand Bible completely does not necessarily mean that the Bible is wrong. A person might just lack insight."

I would rather go with Facts and have Blank spaces then have something that has 0 facts

how can you have facts about spirituality? It's not a physical thing. You have no tools for it. Most importantly, you can't feel it with any of your 5 senses, which means you cant create any tools for it. So what do you say when you hug your girlfriend (or wife)? I love you but there is 0 facts that I do...? My love for you is a big... Blank?

To ask for physical facts about a spiritual concept....?

In any case, what makes me believe, is ALOT of ideas and concepts about my religion that most people don't even know exist. Most of those concepts are in Gemara and Midrash (Talmud), even more in Kabbalistic literature. I can't even start to explain to you the scope of the knowlege contained in those writings.


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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 13 of 52 (48444)
08-03-2003 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by doctrbill
08-03-2003 2:30 AM


Would you like to comment on the importance of the Firmament?

Sure. I'm not sure you are ready for it but here it goes:

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters" (Beresheet 1:6)

Three distinct spiritual energy forces permeate all existence. Using the language of metaphor, Kabbalah (Zohar, Volume 1, 6:44 - 65) identifies these three forces as Right, Left and Central Columns. Right correlates to the positive [+] force, which manifests physicality as the proton. Left signifies the negative charge [-], manifesting as the electron. Central is expressed through the neutron, the force that bridges the positive and negative poles. Just as the filament in a light bulb creates the resistance that generates light, the Central column corresponds to cosmic force of resistance - The Firmament whose resistance produces illumination. Even sunlight striking a physical object requires reflection in order to generate luminous energy. This model for arousing both spiritual and physical Light is mirrored within ourselves. Our left side corresponds to the negative pole [-], and to our Desire to recieve. The right side signifies the positive pole [+], the will to share that resides in our soul. Our hearts and minds correspond to the central aspect. This is our free will, whereby we can choose to resist the Desire to recieve and nurture the desire to share. This is the choice that arouses spiritual Light.

With this introduction lets dive into the fun part, the text of Kabbalah.
Zohar, Volume 1, 6:44 :

"And Elohim said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters" (Beresheet 1:6). This phrase alludes to a detailed reform of the separation of the upper from the lower waters according to the secret of the Left. Here, the dispute according to the secret of the left occured. Until this point, Refferring to the first day, reference is made to the right. But on the second day, reference is to the secret of THE GOVERNING OF the left. Because of this, a great dispute broke out ON THE SECOND DAY between the two sides. THE LEFT WANTED TO CANCEL THE GOVERNING POWER OF THE RIGHT ENTIRELY, WHILE THE RIGHT WHANTED TO CANCEL THE GOVERNING POWER OF THE LEFT ENTIRELY. THE right which is the secret of CHESED (kindness) AND THE FIRST DAY, is the perfection of all. Because of this, everything was written in the right on the first day. This means that all the seven days, wich are the seven sfirot, are emerged in it and are alluded to in it, because every perfection depends on the right side.

When the rule of the left ws aroused, its dispute with the right began and the fire of anger in that dispute became fierce. From this dispute, Gehenom was created. So Gehenom was awakened and created by the left, and cleaved to it. (Which means that whoever wants to strengthen the left shall fall into Gehenom, which originates from it).

Edited to say: Gehenom is commonly refered to as Hell. However, Kabbalistic and Talmudic concept of this word is what the soul experiences for what it now recognizes as a mistake. It is not a place where a soul stays forever.

So, Doctrbill, How is that for a "Little Box"? Can you hear me now? Or you still in your little box trying to prove that Shabbat was used for military training back in "Military Rule" of Moses?

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-03-2003]


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 217 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 52 (48449)
08-03-2003 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by THEONE
08-03-2003 3:58 AM


quote:
So what do you say when you hug your girlfriend (or wife)? I love you but there is 0 facts that I do...? My love for you is a big... Blank?

But there are naturalistic explanations for what you are feeling when you hug a loved one.

It's quite well understood, actually, what happens in the brain and body when we experience different emotional states.


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 217 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 52 (48450)
08-03-2003 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by THEONE
08-03-2003 6:09 AM


quote:
Using the language of metaphor, Kabbalah (Zohar, Volume 1, 6:44 - 65) identifies these three forces as Right, Left and Central Columns. Right correlates to the positive [+] force, which manifests physicality as the proton. Left signifies the negative charge [-], manifesting as the electron. Central is expressed through the neutron, the force that bridges the positive and negative poles.

So, this is what the Middle Eastern nomadic desert tribesman who wrote about the firmament meant?

Or, are you doing what is called post hoc reasoning to shoehorn our current knowledge into what the Bible says?

Now, honestly, isn't it much more likely that the nomadic desert tribesman looked up into the sky and thought that it was a giant dome that had little twinkling lights fixed in it?


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