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Author Topic:   Why this story and not another?
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 31 of 52 (48553)
08-04-2003 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by DC85
08-03-2003 8:55 PM


you don't get it do you? I mean why is being Jewish the right thing for you to be? why are you not christen or any other religion? why are you what you are? why do you believe this? thats what I mean and the meaning of the entire topic. why is this one right when they all have the same support. 0 facts. I mean I can say the Universe was created by a child in another Universe as a science Project and its all in a Pickle jar! this is just as supported as your belief. so why do you believe what you believe? I am not saying you don't have the right to it. I am just asking why?

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you.

First of all, I believe there is God (regardless of any specific religion). Why? Because, I believe in right and wrong. What I mean is, if according to science everything is just a product of random reactions and mutations then how can I (or anybody) complain about what is right and what is wrong, how can I complain about unfairness? But it is in my essense to want to be treated fairly. As my school teacher used to say "Life is unfair, get used to it". Well, I'll get used to it, no doubt about that. But why do I feel it in the first place? According to science it's a concept which does not exist. There are just physical laws of nature. Nothing else. So how can science explain right and wrong? How can it even begin to EMPIRICALLY approach right/wrong behaviour? Who establishes the moral laws? Society in which you grew up in? Or communist society in which I grew up in? Which one is right? Prove it with science. Which science are you gonna use? quantum physics? chemistry? biology? social behavior? - but the last one is just a study of social body, or individual in a society, things of that nature. Can it prove that when Stalin killed 15 million of his own people, he was doing a bad thing? There are some people (and I personaly know a few) that think he did the right thing. WHO IS RIGHT? WHY DO WE EVEN HAVE A CONCEPT OF RIGHT (OR WRONG)? IT'S ALL JUST A PRODUCT OF RANDOMNESS.
And that's what makes me believe in God. Because, there are underlined moral laws (and concepts of right and wrong) which transend all gender, race and age. To me that is what RELIGION IS. But how can you EMPIRICALLY TEST THESE LAWS? What FACTS DO YOU WANT?

To me religion is not "Belive in Jesus or burn in hell" it's not "Pray to God every day and he will reward you with eternal life". To me and to Judaism religion is not a concept of reward and punishment in it's usual sense. I mean, if you stick your fingers in the electrical outlet and get electrectuted, is it logical to say that electricity punished you?

Religion is (to me) a set of Universal Moral Laws which exist independently from laws of nature, science. God (to me) is the source and unity of these laws. That's why I hold on to monotheism and don't believe in multiple gods. In the latter, there could be no unity, there are just separate forces (meaning sets and subsets of independent moral laws which are equal but independent, to me there must be unity, I guess I'm like Einstien beliving in Unified Field Theory).

So why Judaism? Because it was a first religion that came up with Monotheism and Moral Laws. Christianity and Islam (the only other monotheistic religions) take roots in Judaism. I want to learn roots, rather than branches. I want to go straight to the source, straight to the origin.

Why not believe other stories? such as universe being created by a kid as a science project? Well, if you can build your life around that concept and come up with real Moral Laws which will make you a better person and make world a better place to live in *... Then why not believe in them?

* Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism never had Inquisitions or Crusades (actually in both of these "events" they were usually victims). That is another reason why I choose Judaism. It is just a bit less violent (to say the least).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by DC85, posted 08-03-2003 8:55 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 08-04-2003 9:21 AM THEONE has not yet responded
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nator
Member (Idle past 213 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 32 of 52 (48567)
08-04-2003 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by THEONE
08-03-2003 11:41 PM


quote:
As you might of noticed by now, I believe in God. I also belive that Torah is the word of God, transmited through Moses.

Are you saying that because you believe in God, you therefore also believe the Torah?

quote:
It is not necessary for someone to mean anything while writing down what is being transmited.

Transmitted? So God took over the bodies of those who wrote the Torah and the people didn't mean what they were writing? That's pretty wild.

Since we do not have any originals of these writings, and since much of it was also written down from oral traditions and/or decades or more after the events in question, and since there have been different translations, how can you know that what you are reading is actually what was meant?

Lastly, if it didn't matter if the "receiver" understood or "meant" what he was writing, why didn't God just write about protons and neutrons, or use other scientific terms, if this is what he was "really" talking about? Why not be perfectly clear? THAT would be impressive evidence of God's existence; that illiterate, uneducated nomadic desert tribesmen suddenly understood atomic structure.

quote:
Now, honestly, isn't it much more likely that the nomadic desert tribesman looked up into the sky and thought that it was a giant dome that had little twinkling lights fixed in it?

quote:
More than likely. That is why they were given Torah. Which says what it really is. Right after they accuired Torah, they began studying it. Even up to this day.

The torah doesn't talk about protons and neutrons, nor does it talk about galazies, atmospheres, nor the fact that all the lights in the sky are stars and planets. What is given is the notion that the sky is a hard dome that has little lights in it. All of your after-the-fact extrapolation doesn't change this.

quote:
What I quoted you is book called Zohar, it was written way before let's say Newton's time. Which means, it's written even before the knowelege of electricity (and no I'm not saying Newton discovered electricity). I added things about protons and electrons to help explain a concept, that's it. Zohar only states Right (pure) Left(impure) and Central (neither). Pure we can compare to something that is positive, impure to something that is negative. And thanks to physics now we can go even deeper and ad protons, electrons and so on, to explain things better.

OK, now I'm confused.

Are you talking about protons and neutrons to make a comparison, or are you trying to say that what is written in the Torah it actually about protons and neutrons?

And wouldn't "pure" and "impure" be rather poor (at least, odd and ill-fitting) descriptions of positively and negatively charged particles? There's nothing "pure" or "impure" about either one.

quote:
That's why Judaism never had any problems with science (maybe with exception of some fanatics). Whatever is in Torah can only be explained better with science. Unfortunately it doesn't work the other way too well. But after all, Torah was never designed as a Chemistry or Quantum Physics "suplementary study". However, every single science is a "suplementary" or "additional" study for Torah. That's how I see it.

Well, it certainly seems to me that you are going way out there in your extrapolations and interpretations of what is meant by the writers.

Remember, if you get to decide what it means after the fact, then you can make it mean whatever you want.

[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-04-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by THEONE, posted 08-03-2003 11:41 PM THEONE has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 213 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 33 of 52 (48569)
08-04-2003 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by THEONE
08-04-2003 6:30 AM


quote:
First of all, I believe there is God (regardless of any specific religion). Why? Because, I believe in right and wrong.

I believe in right and wrong, but I don't believe in God.

quote:
What I mean is, if according to science everything is just a product of random reactions and mutations then how can I (or anybody) complain about what is right and what is wrong, how can I complain about unfairness?

Wow, do you ever have a strange view of science. It's all messed up. Let me try to help.

First of all, it seems like you are talking about the Theory of Evolution. Mutations are random, yes, but natural selection is not. Selection is the exact opposite of random, no?

Second, please explain why randomness in nature precludes our notions of right and wrong?

quote:
But it is in my essense to want to be treated fairly. As my school teacher used to say "Life is unfair, get used to it". Well, I'll get used to it, no doubt about that. But why do I feel it in the first place? According to science it's a concept which does not exist.

Wrong. You hold a cartoon image of science. Science says no such thing.

quote:
There are just physical laws of nature. Nothing else.

Science deals with naturalistic explanations for naturalistic phenomena.

It does not comment upon the supernatural, the ethical, the aesthetic in order to place value. That is not it's realm.

quote:
So how can science explain right and wrong?

Science doesn't explain right and wrong. It is not designed to answer such philosophical or ethical questions.

quote:
How can it even begin to EMPIRICALLY approach right/wrong behaviour? Who establishes the moral laws? Society in which you grew up in? Or communist society in which I grew up in? Which one is right? Prove it with science. Which science are you gonna use? quantum physics? chemistry? biology? social behavior? - but the last one is just a study of social body, or individual in a society, things of that nature. Can it prove that when Stalin killed 15 million of his own people, he was doing a bad thing? There are some people (and I personaly know a few) that think he did the right thing. WHO IS RIGHT?

I feel for your struggle, but you are putting blame in an inappropriate place.

Science does not attempt to determine what is right or wrong.

Science can describe behavior, but it does not proscribe behavior on a moral basis.

quote:
WHY DO WE EVEN HAVE A CONCEPT OF RIGHT (OR WRONG)? IT'S ALL JUST A PRODUCT OF RANDOMNESS.

We have concepts of right and wrong because it is in the interest of society to have them. It makes things more pleasant and productive for everyone if there are rules that we follow most of the time. It's good for the group, in other words, and, evolutionarily speaking, makes sense because there is safety in unified numbers.

quote:
And that's what makes me believe in God. Because, there are underlined moral laws (and concepts of right and wrong) which transend all gender, race and age. To me that is what RELIGION IS. But how can you EMPIRICALLY TEST THESE LAWS? What FACTS DO YOU WANT?

It seems that you are angry at science for not answerning questions it is not designed or intended to answer. It also seems that you reject parts of science for making you feel uncomfortable about purpose and meaning.

One can hold moral values and still accept that random mutation results in genetic diversity through natural selection. One can accept that "nature is probably all there is" and still hold moral values.

I don't think most of our prisons are filled with Athiests. In fact, the opposite is true.

------------------
"Evolution is a 'theory', just like gravity. If you don't like it, go jump off a bridge."

[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-04-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 6:30 AM THEONE has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 376 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 34 of 52 (48622)
08-04-2003 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by THEONE
08-04-2003 6:30 AM


so why can't I do the right thing if I don't believe in God? its seems to be a Instinct of some kind to know whats fair and whats not. since we Have a sense of conciseness no other Animals have. we also are smart Enough to know that doing certain things can destroy everything. we know without rules set the world would be a Mess. I don't need a GOD to tell me that. all religions are based around Knowing these things. we don't need a Magical power to tell us what to do. we are Smart enough to figure it out. I still say this is not a good reason to be Jewish. lets say for the sake of this topic Creation is real. why are you so sure there is only one god? why are you so sure that there is only one source for everything in the Universe?

[This message has been edited by DC85, 08-04-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 6:30 AM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 5:40 PM DC85 has responded

    
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 35 of 52 (48659)
08-04-2003 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by DC85
08-04-2003 12:56 PM


so why can't I do the right thing if I don't believe in God?

Go ahead. Today, in U.S. you can do that. The society you grew up in (I take it you grew up in U.S.) incorporated Moral Laws of Judaism into it's onw social structure. "Don't kill, don't steal and so on". Everything except believe in God and Keep the Shabbat. Well, you aren't jewish so no need to keep shabbat. As far as God goes, you don't need to believe in Him. If you kill or steal, Uncle Sam will try to punish you instead. In another words, it seems that you just substituted God for what Uncle Sam puts in the U.S Penal Code. (as the dollar bill says, In God we turst)

we Have a sense of conciseness no other Animals have

WHY?

we also are smart Enough to know that doing certain things can destroy everything.

BUT WHY DO WE DO THEM ANYWAYS?

we know without rules set the world would be a Mess. I don't need a GOD to tell me that

You don't need Him to tell you that, because the Society you grew up in is BASED on what He said. America was established by religios people. "All men are created equal". Notice the "created" part. There was very few atheists about 300 years ago, you know.

all religions are based around Knowing these things.

but then again, Koran (Islamic bible) says that if someone will come to your house and tries to convert you, you must take out your sword and chop the head of the imbasel (not in these exact words). Whanna scientifically prove that they are wrong?

we don't need a Magical power to tell us what to do. we are Smart enough to figure it out.

God is not a Magical power. You think that you are smart enough, because all your life, since your birth, you were spoon fed God's morals through filter of a Social Behaviour based on His word.

I still say this is not a good reason to be Jewish.

Good. I'm not trying to convert anybody here.

lets say for the sake of this topic Creation is real. why are you so sure there is only one god? why are you so sure that there is only one source for everything in the Universe?

I'll try to explain it in tearms of science.... For a second, look around you. You see all sorts of different things. They look different and feel different. If you break all these things down to chemical compounds, then down to chemicals, then down to molecules, then down to atoms... and finaly down to quarks. You will realize that all these things around you, are made of exactly the same thing. QUARKS. No matter if we are taking about monitor screen or yourself. All made of quarks. It just depends on different composition of them. But we still see that there are alot of quarks. But were do these quarks come from? Well, acording to modern physics they come from pure energy of the Big Bang.

I believe physical is a manifistation of metaphysical. Or Universe and all in it, is manifistation of God.

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-04-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by DC85, posted 08-04-2003 12:56 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by DC85, posted 08-04-2003 8:29 PM THEONE has responded
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 08-05-2003 1:16 AM THEONE has responded

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 376 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 36 of 52 (48682)
08-04-2003 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by THEONE
08-04-2003 5:40 PM


hehe yeah. Jewish was not the first religion. those Morals where set long Before your God was. explain why Native American and other Religions have similar rules..... you can't say they copied or got it from them.(unless you are going to use the Holy book to explain it which has more problems I really don't want to talk about in this topic).
its Hard to survive without these set rules and we KNOW IT! Primitive man could not have become civilized without rules. in order to Live together you can't run around doing what ever you please. its set. it can't be done. you can't very well have a group that depends on one another when you go and kill them all can you? a God DID not need to tell anyone anything! its just common sense that is left over from Primitive civilization. even after that you can't very well progress and get better without other Humans can you? the fact is its all common sense not God. Yes I am aware people do bad things but that just means they don't think or are insane. and if you think about it this way almost all rules can be accounted for this way
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 5:40 PM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 11:45 PM DC85 has responded

    
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 37 of 52 (48702)
08-04-2003 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by DC85
08-04-2003 8:29 PM


Jewish was not the first religion.

No it was not. It was the first to started Ethical Monotheism though.

those Morals where set long Before your God was

Which morals? The ones Spartans had about giving their wifes to the strongest Spartans so they could impragnate them and give birth to the strongest babies for the Sparta? That's a good one.
Or Roman (and many other nations of that time) moral of killing retarded and handicaped children? Romans were actually outraged with the Jews, because Jews did not kill their mentally or physically challanged kids. How barbarious, to allow them to live and suffer!
Or, how about the Greek aristocratic moral about sex. Sex with women is for the sake of children, and sex with men is for pleasure. That's why most of the aristocracy had 14-16 year old slave boys for pleasure puropses. You like that moral?
Should I get into morals of Babylonians, Asirians, Egyptians and other great empires which preceeded the Hebrews?

Name one empire of the time which had moral of not killing. (and I don't mean "don't kill your superior, but slawter your slave at any given moment")

the fact is its all common sense not God

That is not a fact to me (if it is to you, prove it scientifically). Common sense is based on the environment you grew up in. If you would be raised in radical Islam environment, it would be common sense for you to kill the first Christian, or Jew, you would see near your house.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by DC85, posted 08-04-2003 8:29 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 52 (48706)
08-05-2003 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by THEONE
08-04-2003 5:40 PM


The society you grew up in (I take it you grew up in U.S.) incorporated Moral Laws of Judaism into it's onw social structure.

If this is the case, why then have only 3-4 of the Ten Commandments ever been laws? That's less than half, which is weird if they're supposed to be the basis of our legal system.

The only laws that are shared between our system and the Ten Commandments are those laws that are so generally useful that they pop up in the moral codes of every culture that survives.

There was very few atheists about 300 years ago, you know.

Not among the founding fathers. Largely they were of the opinion that God took no actions in this world except to create it, if even that.

Koran (Islamic bible) says that if someone will come to your house and tries to convert you, you must take out your sword and chop the head of the imbasel (not in these exact words). Whanna scientifically prove that they are wrong?

(I think the word you wanted was "infidel", not "imbicile".) The Christian Old Testament says that Thou Shall Keep No Other Gods but Me, and perscribes death to any who break those commandments. What's better about that?

You think that you are smart enough, because all your life, since your birth, you were spoon fed God's morals through filter of a Social Behaviour based on His word.

That largely ignores the success of many cultures with moral codes with no connection to Judeo-Christian belief.

You will realize that all these things around you, are made of exactly the same thing. QUARKS.

If you're trying to set up an analogy of unity or something, you need to know that there's no less than six types ("flavors") of quark.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 5:40 PM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 52 (48707)
08-05-2003 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by THEONE
08-04-2003 11:45 PM


Name one empire of the time which had moral of not killing.

Why bother? We certainly don't live in one today... Or hadn't you noticed that our "empire" kills on a regular basis?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by THEONE, posted 08-04-2003 11:45 PM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 376 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 40 of 52 (48708)
08-05-2003 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by THEONE
08-04-2003 11:45 PM


Humans lived in groups so they needed to make rules (read fully above) those rules just stuck.
what I am saying is I am sure for example killing is wrong was set with Primitive man in primitive Civilization. (Please read the Above!) God was not needed. In Order for humans to Live together you couldn't kill or steal.(other things chain off from this like stealing anothers mate)
I mean thats all just Common sense if you going to live in a group. Since Humans are able to think and Learn they could figure out if You Kill the Other People in a Group you die(you can't survive)and if You steal from someone in the group the other gets mad and you can't live well in the group(you die). Its as simple as that where exactly does a god come in here?

[This message has been edited by DC85, 08-05-2003]


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 52 (48710)
08-05-2003 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by DC85
08-05-2003 1:18 AM


I mean thats all just Common sense if you going to live in a group. Since Humans are able to think and Learn they could figure out You Kill the Other People in a Group you die(you can't survive).

Well, it's probably much more likely to say that not every group of humans figured this out - and the ones that didn't, died out. Leaving only the groups who had established certain moral codes.


This message is a reply to:
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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 42 of 52 (48733)
08-05-2003 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by crashfrog
08-05-2003 1:16 AM


only laws that are shared between our system and the Ten Commandments are those laws that are so generally useful that they pop up in the moral codes of every culture that survives.

Exactly.

Not among the founding fathers. Largely they were of the opinion that God took no actions in this world except to create it

Well, in another words, they believed in God, just didn't think he does sh**! So they sat around, waited for the revelation, it never came. They said, f*%& it! And wrote down the Constitution! LOL

(I think the word you wanted was "infidel", not "imbicile".)

Yeh, sorry! and I'm not taking those ESL classes again!

The Christian Old Testament says that Thou Shall Keep No Other Gods but Me, and perscribes death to any who break those commandments. What's better about that?

I think you are refering to "Thou shall have no other gods before me"(which is almost the same thing). That's what God told Hebrews. But in another part of OT (Torah) He says "Lest you.... and believe in gods I have prescribed to the gentiles...". Which means not all gentiles (non jews) have to believe in "the" God (maybe he was talking about the science community, who knows ). With regards to Christians perscribing "death penalty" for this sin, I can't say anything. I have my own "dissatisfactions" with Christian Doctrines.

As far as Israelites perscribing capital punishment for it I'm gonna quote what I wrote in another topic:

"Indeed. This capital punishment is attached by the Sanhedrin (the Hebrew "Supreme Court", it consisted of seventy one great Bible Sages). Sanhedrin only existed in times of Holy Temple (ended almost 2000 years ago)

Thing you probably didn't know is that if Sanhedrin (Supreme Court) sentenced more then 3 people to death in 7 years it (Sunhedrin) was considered a "Killer Court" and was to be completely reassembled with new Judges (even if 3 sentencees were murderers). It was Court's essence to exercise mercy. "

I can reference it if you'd like.

That largely ignores the success of many cultures with moral codes with no connection to Judeo-Christian belief.

See above. ("Lest you.... and believe in gods I have prescribed to the gentiles...". Which means not all gentiles (non jews) have to believe in "the" God.)

Maybe this was the reason why Jews never had Crusades or never (not even now) spent billions of dollars for missionary purposes.

If you're trying to set up an analogy of unity or something, you need to know that there's no less than six types ("flavors") of quark.

I thought there was only 4 types. I guess I was wrong. In any case, doesn't Unified Field Theory says that even those different types come out from one source? I know it's just a theory and not yet proven, but isn't it the direction of scientific thought?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 08-05-2003 1:16 AM crashfrog has responded

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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 43 of 52 (48736)
08-05-2003 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
08-05-2003 1:17 AM


I wrote: Name one empire of the time which had moral of not killing.

You responded:
Why bother? We certainly don't live in one today... Or hadn't you noticed that our "empire" kills on a regular basis?

Maybe because it didn't incorporate ALL the commandments? But, I was refering to laws regarding people inside an "empire". All of the people in the "empires" could kill their slaves at will (things of that nature).

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-05-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 08-05-2003 1:17 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 376 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 44 of 52 (48791)
08-05-2003 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by THEONE
08-05-2003 4:56 AM


theone you forgot to reply to my post. I thought we were having a discussion. I need you to explain where exactly a God comes into the Above(my last post)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by THEONE, posted 08-05-2003 4:56 AM THEONE has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 213 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 52 (48829)
08-05-2003 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by nator
08-04-2003 9:21 AM


Just so you know, The One, I'm waiting for a reply to message #33.

You made several errors in your representation of science which I addressed.

There's no rush, though, if you are busy. Just let me know if you intend to answer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 08-04-2003 9:21 AM nator has not yet responded

    
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