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Author Topic:   Logically speaking: God is knowable
Straggler
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Posts: 10313
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


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Message 121 of 187 (353623)
10-02-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by iano
10-02-2006 11:46 AM


Iano
Non empirical arguments such as yours are inevitably circular and will therefore just go round in circles when debated.

You "know" that God exists
You have personal evidence to convince you of this
The personal evidence is the "knowledge" that God exists

This could be applied to any number of faith based positions that you would very probably disagree with e.g.

The Koran is the literal word of God
This is known because the Koran says this
This must therefore be true because the Koran is the word of God


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 11:46 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 122 of 187 (353625)
10-02-2006 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by iano
10-02-2006 11:30 AM


Romans 1:18 "Gods wrath is poured out on all the ungodliness and wickedness of man who supress the truth in their wickedness"

I think you have a rather one dimensional view of God. God is who he is - not who we would find him acceptable to be. Personally speaking a God who hates wickedness strikes me as a better God that one who doesn't.

So take the case of a God who is omnipotent and "hates wickedness", and pours out his wrath on "all the ungodliness and wickedness of man ". An exception to this claim disproves the existence of such a God.

Bible happens to agree with me on this

Yes, but the Bible also agrees with me. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Or the definition of God is lacking. Man defining God - now there's an arrogance in the man who claims to have a complete one

So would you claim that it's possible to know God but not to know what he's like? Surely at least we can specify that he prefers good to evil.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 11:30 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 1:08 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 3541 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 123 of 187 (353627)
10-02-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by iano
10-02-2006 11:31 AM


Iano writes:

Cor 2:14 springs to mind. Not that I blame you. It is the way it is.

Yes of course, Iano, I'm simply blind to the "truth" of your faith/evidence.

Oh, and let me guess. If I believe then I WILL see the "truth", is that it?

Round and round the circle goes...


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iano
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 124 of 187 (353628)
10-02-2006 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Straggler
10-02-2006 12:32 PM


You "know" that God exists
You have personal evidence to convince you of this
The personal evidence is the "knowledge" that God exists

Is it not the evidence of a computer screen on front of you that lets you know there is a computer screen in front of you? You know it because it is there in front of you. Whats the difference? And before you cry 'empiricism'...

Does it actually exist at all? You can't know that. You assume it does because you assume objective reality to be objective. Not even wheeling a bunch of other people in to confirm it exists helps - you don't even know whether they exist so using that which you don't know to exist (them) to confirm the existance of something else you don't know exists (the computer screen) is circular. Empiricism sails in the same circular boat that I do.

That is why I say knowing something (whether empirically or otherwise) says nothing at all about it actually being the case.


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iano
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 125 of 187 (353631)
10-02-2006 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by RickJB
10-02-2006 12:56 PM


Oh, and let me guess. If I believe then I WILL see the "truth", is that it?

You are not expected to believe something for which you have no reason to. That would be irrational. He will attempt to give you that reason and you can refuse it. If you do not then those reasons will come and then you will believe (no choice implied) and when you do then you will see the truth.

But I digress...

Round and round the circle goes...

See the post above to Straggler to see your own current position. People in glass houses...


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iano
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 126 of 187 (353633)
10-02-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Dr Adequate
10-02-2006 12:39 PM


So take the case of a God who is omnipotent and "hates wickedness", and pours out his wrath on "all the ungodliness and wickedness of man ". An exception to this claim disproves the existence of such a God.

God is wrathful, loving (benevolent) and just (as well as other things). No matter. Point being, there is no point looking for exception to the rule unless your definition is complete. Now how a person would go about doing that I cannot tell. How would they know they had arrived at it?

So would you claim that it's possible to know God but not to know what he's like? Surely at least we can specify that he prefers good to evil.

Only good. Find an exception and I'll renounce my faith or eat my hat - whichever you prefer


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-02-2006 12:39 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3510 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 127 of 187 (353634)
10-02-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by iano
10-02-2006 1:03 PM


See the post above to Straggler to see your own current position. People in glass houses...

There is a difference.

You are a self confessed evangelist, so now, by your own reasoning, are telling others what they MUST do because YOUR circular reasoning forces you to. You are essentially forcing your unknowable Truth on to others as Truth when you freely admit that it is based on self delusion, this is something that Christian churches have a very dark record on since the 3rd century.

I am all for people having hobbies, but should these people really force these hobbies on to others and call them evil and depraved because a part of their hobby suggests this?

You should take up snooker or pool, something a bit more productive than this Christianity lark ;)

Brian.


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iano
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 128 of 187 (353635)
10-02-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Brian
10-02-2006 1:14 PM


CK is dead long live CK

{AbE} btw, the OP is an apologetic not evangelism. Guess that makes me an apologist too. If it is possible for a person to know God exists then it might dilute the notion floating around in peoples heads that God cannot be known

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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 Message 127 by Brian, posted 10-02-2006 1:14 PM Brian has responded

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Brian
Member (Idle past 3510 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 129 of 187 (353636)
10-02-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by iano
10-02-2006 1:19 PM


But you are ignoring what I said.

Your hobby essentially consists of insulting people's intelligence if they don't believe everything in the Bible.

Criticising their way of life.

Condemning their morality.

All this and you don't know if you have deluded yourself or not?

You don't see Trekkies going around slagging people off.

If it is possible for a person to know God exists

But you haven't shown that this is possible, if anything you have shown that it is impossible because our senses and thoughts are unreliable!

If you know God exists, as in the Christian God, then it means that Allah doesn't exist. Thus, a Muslim cannot know that their God exists because Allah cannot exist if your God does, and there are a great many Muslims who 'know' that Allah exists, therefore your God Yahweh does not exist.

Surely you can see how you have falsified your own argument?

then it might dilute the notion floating around in peoples heads that God cannot be known

Not on this occassion mate.

Edited by Brian, : No reason given.


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iano
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 130 of 187 (353639)
10-02-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Brian
10-02-2006 1:29 PM


If you know God exists, as in the Christian God, then it means that Allah doesn't exist.

You obviously haven't been paying attention at the back Brian. Knowing something does not mean that actually is the case. Not my knowing God exists, nor a Muslim knowing Allah exists, nor you knowing there is a computer screen on front of you.

Knowing is the best anyone can say regarding their own certainty. The highest court in anyones land. But that doesn't mean a thing if the objective reality one resides in is not in fact objective. Which of us is deluded, you, the muslim, me. There is no way to tell for any of us (unless of course God exists - then we are not reliant on our assumptions about reality. He can overcome them - being God)

Lets not put knowing above its station huh?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 133 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-02-2006 2:14 PM iano has responded
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Legend
Member (Idle past 3557 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 131 of 187 (353641)
10-02-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
10-02-2006 2:00 PM


I've lost the plot!
so what is your point again ?


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 132 of 187 (353642)
10-02-2006 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by iano
10-02-2006 1:08 PM


If you admit that God is supposedly benevolent, then my original point still stands.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 187 (353645)
10-02-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
10-02-2006 2:00 PM


You obviously haven't been paying attention at the back Brian. Knowing something does not mean that actually is the case. Not my knowing God exists, nor a Muslim knowing Allah exists, nor you knowing there is a computer screen on front of you.

nor knowing that god doesn't exist. How is that different?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 2:00 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3510 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 134 of 187 (353654)
10-02-2006 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
10-02-2006 2:00 PM


You obviously haven't been paying attention at the back Brian. Knowing something does not mean that actually is the case. Not my knowing God exists, nor a Muslim knowing Allah exists, nor you knowing there is a computer screen on front of you.

Oh I have been paying attention, and we are way back at the position I stated last week. You do NOT know that God exists, you BELIEVE that you know God exists.

If your senses are not reliable then we do not know anything for sure, which is pretty much the Buddhist stance.

But, as has been pointed out, what is the point in claiming to know something exists then saying it may not be true?

Knowing is the best anyone can say regarding their own certainty.

The problem I have is that if everything is an illusion, we cannot know anythig for certain, and relaity is a construct of our own mind then why do so many negative events occur in our lives. If I am constructing a reality out of my own thoughts and emotions I can assure you that reality would have no religious groups in it and I'd be having a threesome every night with Audrey Hepburn and Shakira!

The highest court in anyones land.

So next time I am in court I will tell the judge that he cannot be sure if I even exist so how can he send me down?

Oh of course, the judge may not exist either!

Have you ever read William James' Varieties of Religious Experience? You would enjoy it.

There is no way to tell for any of us (unless of course God exists - then we are not reliant on our assumptions about reality. He can overcome them - being God)

But we would be fools to trust that He has overcome them wouldnt we?

Brian.


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Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 135 of 187 (353666)
10-02-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Brian
10-02-2006 2:38 PM


Oh I have been paying attention, and we are way back at the position I stated last week. You do NOT know that God exists, you BELIEVE that you know God exists.

And I believe that I know that you exist. What exactly is the difference here?


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 Message 134 by Brian, posted 10-02-2006 2:38 PM Brian has responded

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