PROOF OF GOD

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The accent you added to the "was" makes it seem as though you might concede that the current height is not exactly 5449 inches.

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Yes.Weather and vandalism make it shorter today.

It really doesn't matter since the Pyramid is not 5449 inches high with or without the capstone.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Since the pyramid can no longer be measured, it is of the utmost importance to know the following (which you conveniently ignored in your last reply...):According to your source, WHO measured the pyramid, WHEN did they measure the pyramid, and HOW did they measure the pyramid (what points of reference did they use)?If your source is valid it should give you this information.

Quotes from WILLOWTREE from this thread: Amazingly, within the last few messages, WILLOWTREE has switched from present to past tense, and even added emphasis; but to make sure I wasn't seeing things: Firstly, it is painful that you have blatantly contradicted your opening post which you constantly refer us to.Secondly, I see no logic behind God creating an degradable symbol, whose mystic numerical foundation can only be measured at a brief point in history.Thirdly, I'm sure you have evidence that some sort of mathematician/historian measured the pyramid at the moment of its construction, along with the means and points of measurement - even if you show that evidence, how do we accept it after you have trashed the scientific abilities of humans present at the time of the pyramid's construction?And my favorite WILLOWTREE quote:

The OP says 5449 as does every post since then.To interpret the OP to mean "today too" is obviously incorrect. Everyone knows the Pyramid has been vandalized. Current Egyptian authorities have even constructed vertical braces in strategic points to further prevent damage to the monument.You have no case for a reversal. I have known the Pyramid is not 5449 inches tall today for over ten years, if anything I am guilty of ambiguity.The persons who say the Pyramid measured 5449 are scientists who spent many years in Egypt. To dismiss the claim/fact because it no longer is this height today does not mean it wasn't. You can comfort yourself with this flimsy rhetoric of a dismissal.One of the best corroborating and collective body of evidence that confirms 5449 is ALL the links which say the Pyramid IS (present tense) about 25 feet higher than 5449. These sources/links all assume a phantom capstone for the single purpose of departing from 5449 and its truth. All these 25 foot higher figures are based upon something that was NEVER there. What is the motivation of this blatant deception ? Answer: To stay far away from 5449. Pliny and Diodorus confirm no capstone.Do the math.All the 25 foot higher figures are so because of an assumption of a capstone. Subtract whatever height they assign to their phantom capstone and guess what number comes up ?I have provided claims, evidence, and sources for 5449. None of my sources worked together in their research. If you research how the Pyramid claims came to be then you will find they came to be just like any scientific claim came to be: Many researchers striving to determine the truth in many different time periods.

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Thirdly, I'm sure you have evidence that some sort of mathematician/historian measured the pyramid at the moment of its construction, along with the means and points of measurement - even if you show that evidence, how do we accept it after you have trashed the scientific abilities of humans present at the time of the pyramid's construction?

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Then you are arbitrarily calling these people liars. You are conceding the debate according to the rules of debate which is evidence and sources.Like I've said through out this debate - this is all opponents can do in lieu of the evidence.I haven't trashed anything except the nonsense of traditional Egyptologists and their denial of voluminous evidence which disproves their worldview.Egyptologists just keep saying egyptians built the Pyramid, despite the fact that the Pyramid contains technology and information impossible for a ancient human being to have. The text's of Egyptian knowledge discovered by archaeologists DEFY the brilliance of the Pyramid - they admit this - yet they conclude egyptians built it any way because the alternative is not allowed.The evidence for man evolving from an ape or whatever amounts to a shoe box full of disputed bones and yet this is embraced as absolute fact despite the paucity of hard evidence. The Pyramid has been measured for centuries and decoded but this evidence is just plain ignored. Nothing proves the truth of the Romans 1 wrath of God sense removal more than the Pyramid. Physical evidence proving the Bible and yet the moronic contortions of denial that are offered to squirm away from these inescapable facts.Pink:Comfort yourself that the Pyramid is no longer 5449.Please apply the same logic to every other field of science and their claims.The Bible has man starting out VERY smart then getting very dumb then beoming very smart once again.Evo scenario has man an animal, then a cave man and progressively getting better.These two scenarios are far apart and only ONE can be correct.The Pyramid greatly evidences the Biblical scenario. The Pyramid punches a gaping hole in the evo scenario because the Pyramid says someone way back when was smarter than we are today. This is why evos ignore and slander the Pyramid facts. This is why evos "just say" egyptians built the Pyramid and dismiss the whole thing to "secret knowledge" - how convenient ! This proves evidence does not matter - worldview dogma is king.".....the key to the past is the present......" Pure dogma driven starting point of todays evo nonsense.Edit: minor spelling.This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-28-2004 09:49 PM

I think what we'd like to see is the evidence that the Great Pyramid was 5449 inches tall when originally constructed.One other point I've been wondering about: If the pyramid has all these precise numerological features because of its exact proportions, how is this consistent with an imperfect pyramid with a missing capstone?--Percy

From post 72:E. Raymond Capt excerpt: (The Great Pyramid Decoded, page 11)The Great Pyramid was placed in the exact center of all the land area of the world. Lines drawn through the north-south and east-west axis of the Pyramid divide equally the earth's terrain. The north-south axis (31 degrees 9' meridian east Greenwich) is the longest land meridian, and the east-west axis (29 degrees 58'51' north), the longest land parallel. That the Architect knew where to find the poles of the Earth is evidenced by the high degree of accuracy in orienting the (Pyramid) true north. Modern man's best effort, the Paris Observatory, is six minutes of degrees off true north. The Great Pyramid today is only off three minutes and that after 4200 years, due mainly to subsidence and/or continental drift.
END CAPT EXCERPT.

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NosyNed: Still no answer on your meridians?

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I am not trying to intentionally clown your point.The above quote of mine/Capt says "east Greenwich" which was preceded by a coordinate.I do not understand your question if the content of post 72 does not answer it.

I supplied a set of measurements in post:
Message 144They are a series of "beach front" co ordinates following a couple of meridians around the world. The one west of the pyramid is, by my calculations, longer on land than the pyramid one. It is about 10 degrees west of the pyramid.I have yet to see anything defending another measurement. Untill we go over the calculations very carefully it is inconclusive. However, it does appear that your source is wrong.

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I think what we'd like to see is the evidence that the Great Pyramid was 5449 inches tall when originally constructed.

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I agree.My present source does not delve into these details. I am using Book 1 of 5. I do not own the other 4 and would have to borrow them.But my source, Adam Rutherford spent many years in Egypt researching his claims. By the rules of this debate I have satisfied the requirements. But suppose I do obtain the foci evidence for the height, it will still come down to believing someones measurements, nay, a body of scientists making the 5449 claim. I can tell you that Dr. Scott has researched this from every source and every angle. His research is only available in oral form and I DO NOT formally offer it into this debates evidence for this reason. I am asserting though, that I have listened to hundreds of hours of his teaching which traced these claims and how they evolved and were verified true. I am amazed at how history treats Isaac Newton in its complete dismissal of his brilliant research/his part in uncovering the truth which he contributed to. This dismissal is obviously because of the subject and perceived claims.I will attempt to obtain the sources necessary to comply with what you ask. The person I obtain these books from is very hesitant to loan them out, and I presently cannot afford to buy them. (Book 1/$175.00 U.S.)

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One other point I've been wondering about: If the pyramid has all these precise numerological features because of its exact proportions, how is this consistent with an imperfect pyramid with a missing capstone?

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The numerological wonders/features are all figured without the phantom capstone.HOWEVER:Assertion: (for the time being)The capstone would not fit/does not fit. It is 286.1 inches (totality) overlapping IF it did exist.Through out the Pyramid we have a deliberate error of 286.1 inches. This 286.1 is always to the "left" which denotes the type and symbol for "sin".When the first recorded breach into the Pyramid occurred (820 AD) these Arabs logically deduced that the entry door (assumed) would be in the center. It wasn't. It was about 281 inches to the left of center. A marvelously crafted swivel door was always there !
This 286.1 inch error to the left was corrected when the death of Christ came in 33 AD, marked exactly when the Grand Gallery expands out from the first ascending passage (type of ascent under Mosaic law) - and guess how much that Gallery expands upwards - 286.1 inches !This is symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection rectifying the problem of sin which is the foundational claim of the Bible.
This intentional error and its remedy in the Chamber (Grand Gallery) that symbolizes the era of grace ("charisma" in the greek: unmerited favor) is utterly astounding.

According to your calculations - how much ?

By my rough calculations 9353 miles to 9971 miles or about 600 miles difference (6%). They are not the definitive calculations by any means. They are, so far, the ONLY calculations we have.This is just one other meridian I eyeballed. I suspect there are a few others between these two numbers (and maybe some even longer).

WILLOWTREE - Explain to me how the present tense grammar of your first post is "obviously" not referring to present day.More importantly - You argued with me in this thread that the pyramid's height did not change! When I brought up vandalism, erosion, earthquake damage, and settling you only responded with: ...and later, again: If nothing else it is intentional misleading and guilt by omission. Simply perusing this thread shows that you switched from using present tense to using the past tense - I believe you finally realized the illogical nature of your own statements. What are you talking about here? Did you even understand my message?I would please like an explanation of WHO, WHEN, and HOW the height of the pyramid was measured. The most I've seen in reply to this is your statement to someone else that "it will still come down to believing someones measurements, nay, a body of scientists making the 5449 claim."How did such scientists measure the height of a pyramid that has undergone erosion, earthquake damage, settling, and vandalism? These are unpredictable, chaotic factors. How did they determine the lost height?According to your own admission, one inch off would destroy your argument.HOW DID THEY DETERMINE THE LOST HEIGHT, AND THUS THE ORIGINAL HEIGHT, OF THE PYRAMID WITH AN ACCURACY OF ONE INCH?

Here is a good site on the history of various ways the Great Pyramid has been measured and the correllation between most of the different methods. It also goes into some of the basics of measurements and mathmatics used by the Egyptioans. It mentions some of the Mathmatical Papyrus that have been discovered. Great Pyramid BlueprintIf you would like additional information on the mathmatical methods used by the Egyptians, this site with examples from the Rhind Papyrus and Moscow Papyrus may help. Mathmatical Papyrus

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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WILLOWTREE - Explain to me how the present tense grammar of your first post is "obviously" not referring to present day.

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I have already admitted my error of the present tense in a recent previous post. I wrongly assumed that "everyone" knew the height of the Pyramid today has diminished. I should of made this clear but I didn't.

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More importantly - You argued with me in this thread that the pyramid's height did not change! When I brought up vandalism, erosion, earthquake damage, and settling you only responded with:

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I omitted the quote of mine that you say exposes more error.You are taking this out of context, please do not play me for a fool.When you ascertained the "vandalized" look of the Pyramid today, you initiated a comment as such, I responded by explaining why (stripped casing stones), THEN in this context you questioned whether these missing stones could affect the height. I answered in the negative.My answer also indicated that the missing stones did not affect the height because these stones were stripped before any measurements ever took place. When the rubble accumulated over the centuries was finally cleared, casing stones still intact at the base of the Pyramid survived. Scientists simply projected up using the angle of the undisturbed stones. These stones cannot affect the height either way because they led to a summit platform that bore no damage.When modern scientific measurements were produced it was found that the Pyramid's sides are slightly curved/concave. If you extend the circle of this curvature until it encloses, then double it, you have got the exact circumference of the Earth. This wonder was deduced from the casing stones still intact and the concave sides.

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If nothing else it is intentional misleading and guilt by omission. Simply perusing this thread shows that you switched from using present tense to using the past tense - I believe you finally realized the illogical nature of your own statements.

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Why would I intentionally mislead and then admit my own mistake ?I was not "discovered" - as soon as I perceived the misunderstanding I corrected it.

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I would please like an explanation of WHO, WHEN, and HOW the height of the pyramid was measured.

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I will repeat this information only one more time.I have presented ALL my evidence with a source(s).In a previous post I cited my sources.Once again:Dr. Adam Rutherford, F.R.A.S.,F.R.G.S. in Egypt 1925, 1950, 1963, 1964, 1965. "Pyramidology Book 1" [London: 1970]Professor C. Piazzi Smyth, Astronomer Royal for ScotlandDr. Gene Scott Ph.D. Stanford UnivesityRutherford's on site research was preceded by a host of others. Just like any field of scientific enquiry each person contributes to the truth.Dr. Scott's research has the benefit of having ALL the research ever conducted on the Pyramid.But as it stands now, I have quoted 5449 which is the height determined by Rutherord and his predecessors. The foci of the discovery is not in the paticular source I am using presently. The source I am using gives the outline but the details of how is in another volume.I could be wrong, but I think you are really saying or going to say there is an evil conspiracy, that over two hundred years of modern scientific measurements is the collective product of biased conspiracy. This would be equivalent to fundies hiding behind the age-old "blame the devil" excuse when cornered in argument. The scientific establishment completely ignores the collective body of Divine Pyramid evidence just like fundies hold to a young earth - which defies the evidence. They say "God made it look that way", egyptologists say "ancient egyptians made the Pyramid" while they totally ignore all the evidence.There is no one person who "made the measurements". One after the other contributed, and the height was finally and irrefutably proven.
I will obtain the sources and post this evidence ASAP.Please keep in mind that the ONLY deliberate and intentionally incorrect Pyramd height is all the sources and links which parrot a 25 foot higher than 5449 figure. This is ONLY done on the basis of a phantom capstone, which they knew never existed, yet they with premeditated fore-thought claim the Pyramid is X high all based on an assumption of a capstone. This is done to steer clear of 5449 - this is red-handed deception which in itself testifies to the veracity of 5449.

The concavity of the Great Pyramid's sides is linear, not curved, yielding an 8-sided pyramid. See http://www.catchpenny.org/concave.html (has some good pictures and diagrams) and The Great Pyramid Reflections in Time (argues that the ratio of the length of the sides describes various measures of the length of the year).--Percy