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Author Topic:   Is America a Christian nation?
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 1 of 78 (17355)
09-13-2002 9:44 AM


Is it?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 10:23 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 78 (17362)
09-13-2002 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mammuthus
09-13-2002 9:44 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Is it?
No, it isn't. It is a country where the dominate religious belief system is Christianity, but it is not a theocracy.
For the USA to be a Christian Nation it would be the same as Iran is an Islamic Nation where all of the laws are based on their religious laws.
For example; If the USA were a theocracy other beliefs would not be tolerated, there would be no freedom of speech, and most sciences would be outlawed as being heresies and blasphemous. There would be no truth allowed other than that of the State's religion.
Most of us here would have been "questioned" by the Inquisition long ago and most likely put to death as well.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 9:44 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 10:37 AM nos482 has replied
 Message 9 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 09-13-2002 1:41 PM nos482 has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 3 of 78 (17366)
09-13-2002 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by nos482
09-13-2002 10:23 AM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
quote:
Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Is it?
No, it isn't. It is a country where the dominate religious belief system is Christianity, but it is not a theocracy.
For the USA to be a Christian Nation it would be the same as Iran is an Islamic Nation where all of the laws are based on their religious laws.
For example; If the USA were a theocracy other beliefs would not be tolerated, there would be no freedom of speech, and most sciences would be outlawed as being heresies and blasphemous. There would be no truth allowed other than that of the State's religion.
Most of us here would have been "questioned" by the Inquisition long ago and most likely put to death as well.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-13-2002]

************************************************
Hi nos,
I brought the thread up because of an argument I am having with tokyojim. I agree with most of what you say. One thing though is that both Britain and Germany have state sponsored religions without the effects you mentioned. It actually has had the beneficial effect that most people stopped believing (i.e. think for themselves) or at the very least fundamentalism is not so rampant...and there are thriving communities of muslims, atheists, etc.
Not that I advocate a theocracy in the US. The people advocate it would most likely be in favor of all the negative things you mentioned.
Cheers,
Mammuthus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 10:23 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Joe Meert, posted 09-13-2002 11:49 AM Mammuthus has replied
 Message 6 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 12:22 PM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 23 by Brad McFall, posted 09-17-2002 11:40 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 4 of 78 (17372)
09-13-2002 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
09-13-2002 10:37 AM


quote:
I brought the thread up because of an argument I am having with tokyojim. I agree with most of what you say. One thing though is that both Britain and Germany have state sponsored religions without the effects you mentioned. It actually has had the beneficial effect that most people stopped believing (i.e. think for themselves) or at the very least fundamentalism is not so rampant...and there are thriving communities of muslims, atheists, etc.
Not that I advocate a theocracy in the US. The people advocate it would most likely be in favor of all the negative things you mentioned.
JM: I happened to live in Norway for a year which also has a state sponsored religion. The effects you mentioned (most people are not religious) are also seen there. You did not mention some of the negative effects of SSR. The result I was most depressed by was the cost of a beer! We still have some of these religious laws in the US. For example 'blue laws' and the liquor laws in many states. Fortunately, the US decided to limit access to beer on Sundays, but not jack up the price. Norway does both.
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 10:37 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 11:59 AM Joe Meert has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 5 of 78 (17375)
09-13-2002 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Joe Meert
09-13-2002 11:49 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Joe Meert:
quote:
I brought the thread up because of an argument I am having with tokyojim. I agree with most of what you say. One thing though is that both Britain and Germany have state sponsored religions without the effects you mentioned. It actually has had the beneficial effect that most people stopped believing (i.e. think for themselves) or at the very least fundamentalism is not so rampant...and there are thriving communities of muslims, atheists, etc.
Not that I advocate a theocracy in the US. The people advocate it would most likely be in favor of all the negative things you mentioned.
JM: I happened to live in Norway for a year which also has a state sponsored religion. The effects you mentioned (most people are not religious) are also seen there. You did not mention some of the negative effects of SSR. The result I was most depressed by was the cost of a beer! We still have some of these religious laws in the US. For example 'blue laws' and the liquor laws in many states. Fortunately, the US decided to limit access to beer on Sundays, but not jack up the price. Norway does both.
Cheers
Joe Meert

*******************************************************
Hi Joe,
High beer (and all other alcoholic beverages)prices is a general problem in scandanavian countries. I found the prices outrageous in Denmark and Sweden as well. I was in Helsinki a few months ago and it was also really expensive....and lousy.
German beer is not so expensive, comes in about 4,000 different varieties and is really good. There is one festival during lent where the monks brew Starkbier (Nockerberg festival) that tastes really good and has about 10% alcohol. I have never seen so many trashed people. I assume the monks were so depressed being monks that they found away to lose consciousness completely in an enjoyable and tasty way ....
Cheers,
Mammuthus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Joe Meert, posted 09-13-2002 11:49 AM Joe Meert has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 12:25 PM Mammuthus has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 78 (17377)
09-13-2002 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
09-13-2002 10:37 AM


Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Hi nos,I brought the thread up because of an argument I am having with tokyojim. I agree with most of what you say. One thing though is that both Britain and Germany have state sponsored religions without the effects you mentioned.
It actually has had the beneficial effect that most people stopped believing (i.e. think for themselves) or at the very least fundamentalism is not so rampant...and there are thriving communities of muslims, atheists, etc.
But they are still not theocracies. Do they call themselves Chrisitian Nations or do they call themselves democracies?
Not that I advocate a theocracy in the US. The people advocate it would most likely be in favor of all the negative things you mentioned.
I know. People like Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, etc, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 10:37 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by joz, posted 09-13-2002 3:40 PM nos482 has not replied
 Message 13 by frank, posted 09-13-2002 3:46 PM nos482 has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 78 (17378)
09-13-2002 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mammuthus
09-13-2002 11:59 AM


Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Hi Joe,
High beer (and all other alcoholic beverages)prices is a general problem in scandanavian countries. I found the prices outrageous in Denmark and Sweden as well. I was in Helsinki a few months ago and it was also really expensive....and lousy.
German beer is not so expensive, comes in about 4,000 different varieties and is really good. There is one festival during lent where the monks brew Starkbier (Nockerberg festival) that tastes really good and has about 10% alcohol. I have never seen so many trashed people. I assume the monks were so depressed being monks that they found away to lose consciousness completely in an enjoyable and tasty way ....
Cheers,
Mammuthus
Canadian beer is expensive and good. American beer is cheaper and it is like making love in a canoe....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 11:59 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 09-13-2002 1:34 PM nos482 has not replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 8 of 78 (17379)
09-13-2002 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nos482
09-13-2002 12:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Hi Joe,
High beer (and all other alcoholic beverages)prices is a general problem in scandanavian countries. I found the prices outrageous in Denmark and Sweden as well. I was in Helsinki a few months ago and it was also really expensive....and lousy.
German beer is not so expensive, comes in about 4,000 different varieties and is really good. There is one festival during lent where the monks brew Starkbier (Nockerberg festival) that tastes really good and has about 10% alcohol. I have never seen so many trashed people. I assume the monks were so depressed being monks that they found away to lose consciousness completely in an enjoyable and tasty way ....
Cheers,
Mammuthus
Canadian beer is expensive and good. American beer is cheaper and it is like making love in a canoe....

Not to go overboard on the extra quotes but,
I used to homebrew and actually used the brewing of beer as an easy way to explain fermentation as part of a training guide for microbiology in my company. Monks used to brew and drink beer to supplement their diets when they were fasting. Many of the heavier beers contained enough nutrition (and alchohol) to take the edge off of the fast as well as to supplement their diets.
Now, as to American beers, there are many very good american beers now that rival pretty much anything in the world. They are much more expensive but well worth it IMO.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 12:25 PM nos482 has not replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 9 of 78 (17380)
09-13-2002 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nos482
09-13-2002 10:23 AM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
quote:
Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Is it?
No, it isn't. It is a country where the dominate religious belief system is Christianity, but it is not a theocracy.

Now, back to topic. I have to agree here, I bet that is a big suprise . Most of the founding fathers were either christians or deists. Franklin was an avowed diest, especially in his private writings. He questioned the divinity of Jesus and many tenets of the christian faith. He did this in his private writings and counsled others to keep them private due to the problems that it would cause with the more religious of his fellow colonists. If anyone doubts this please look at many of the biographies on Franklin which contain comments from both his public and private writings.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 10:23 AM nos482 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by John, posted 09-13-2002 1:54 PM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has replied
 Message 15 by nator, posted 09-14-2002 1:02 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 78 (17381)
09-13-2002 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
09-13-2002 1:41 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
Now, back to topic. I have to agree here, I bet that is a big suprise . Most of the founding fathers were either christians or deists. Franklin was an avowed diest, especially in his private writings. He questioned the divinity of Jesus and many tenets of the christian faith. He did this in his private writings and counsled others to keep them private due to the problems that it would cause with the more religious of his fellow colonists. If anyone doubts this please look at many of the biographies on Franklin which contain comments from both his public and private writings.
The same concerning John Adams, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine. The later, though not a founder, certainly influenced the political structure of the country.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 09-13-2002 1:41 PM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 09-13-2002 2:29 PM John has replied
 Message 67 by Syamsu, posted 11-28-2002 1:07 PM John has replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 11 of 78 (17382)
09-13-2002 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by John
09-13-2002 1:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
The same concerning John Adams, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine. The later, though not a founder, certainly influenced the political structure of the country.
Actually I think that J. Adams was probably the most observant of the group that you mentioned. In many ways he was a bit of a puritan at heart, from what I have read. That said, I also think that in many ways he was one of the most admirable but least appreciated and understood (at least commanly) of the founding fathers.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by John, posted 09-13-2002 1:54 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by John, posted 09-13-2002 10:08 PM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 78 (17388)
09-13-2002 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nos482
09-13-2002 12:22 PM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
But they are still not theocracies. Do they call themselves Chrisitian Nations or do they call themselves democracies?
Actually we are not a democracy we`re a constitutional monarchy I think.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 12:22 PM nos482 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Mammuthus, posted 09-16-2002 5:31 AM joz has not replied

  
frank
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 78 (17389)
09-13-2002 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nos482
09-13-2002 12:22 PM


quote:
I know. People like Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, etc, etc.
No, not those people. Let the politicians run a state sponsored church. I'd bet no one would attend.
I can agree that commercial American beer is not all that good, but there is an alternative. One can have good beer at very resonable price by brewing it at home. Go yeast young man !
Clear Skies !
Frank

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 12:22 PM nos482 has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 78 (17394)
09-13-2002 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
09-13-2002 2:29 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
Actually I think that J. Adams was probably the most observant of the group that you mentioned. In many ways he was a bit of a puritan at heart, from what I have read. That said, I also think that in many ways he was one of the most admirable but least appreciated and understood (at least commanly) of the founding fathers.

Ya think....
quote:
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature.... [In] the formation of the American governments ... it will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of heaven.... These governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
-- John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1788, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation.
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), the English version of which was carried unanimously by the Senate, signed into law by John Adams, and translated into Arabic (the original language is by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul)
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"
John Adams (unknown)
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
John Adams (unknown)
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 09-13-2002 2:29 PM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 78 (17406)
09-14-2002 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
09-13-2002 1:41 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Tazimus_maximus:
quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
quote:
Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Is it?
No, it isn't. It is a country where the dominate religious belief system is Christianity, but it is not a theocracy.

Now, back to topic. I have to agree here, I bet that is a big suprise . Most of the founding fathers were either christians or deists. Franklin was an avowed diest, especially in his private writings. He questioned the divinity of Jesus and many tenets of the christian faith. He did this in his private writings and counsled others to keep them private due to the problems that it would cause with the more religious of his fellow colonists. If anyone doubts this please look at many of the biographies on Franklin which contain comments from both his public and private writings.

Thomas Pain was rabidly anti-religious. Ethan Allen and George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were all Deists as well. Madison too, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 09-13-2002 1:41 PM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

  
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