Is America a Christian nation?

Okay strike the prove God doesn't exist. There still has to be a building material though to support the building of the entire universe. So we need to know where that came from. Now there does have to be a chain or a jump a somehow observable and testable process of the creation of new species. Because unless i'm out to lunch that's the general concencus right, that we have species A dying out and species B at some point coming to exist from somewhere. (just an eg. trying to make sure i have the concept right.)Now i have admitted over and over to knowing nothing about science now do me the same favor and realize that you know nothing of God. like this statement

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In other words, if I shut down my brain, forget all the science I know, throw all my personal experiences and critical thinking out the window, I'll accept (be made right with) God? AND get all kinds of neat "accumulated knowledge" I can put to use? What a deal. Does this mean I'll be able to come up with a viable solution to the problem of Carcinus maenas infestation on the Pacific Coast? Might almost be worth it...

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Here you have misinterperted and misrepresented me. God has never asked us to throw personal experience and reason out the window. I didn't say he'd just give you knowledge or all the answers. I believe he has given us an ability to reason and wants us to use personal experience in order to learn. Also you may notice that i am adamant in the fact that knowledge does not = wisdom. they are very different and this is what i was getting at. Knowledge is something a wise man can use. Knowledge by itself is useless. We need wisdom and understanding to interpert the knowledge and make it into something usefull. From what I believe God is the source of wisdom that it comes from him to those who ask. (in the book of James it says he's gives freely to those who ask). I did not say throw out everything and God will provide the answer on a silver platter. It may have sounded that way but was not what i meant.Now i didn't say either that high school kids do not have the intelligence for studying where the earth the universe ect came from i said there are more important things to teach and that one can wait until later. A young hockey player may be ready to come and play in the NHL but the coaching staff in the interest of helping his whole carreer out will leave him in the minor leaugue one more season to help hone his fundamentals, his positioning his view of the ice, and his patience. This way when he comes up to the NHL a year later he is now in an even better position to make his debut. Let's work in the public school system on honing these reasoning skills we have, let's teach language to get a better grasp on communication, let's teach mathematics, let's cover the social history of our plant so we can learn about that (this is the one i'm worried about when people get to the polls to vote. I'd rather they had studied history than science as a voter), and i didn't say take science out that was a misrepresentation i said teach the process the basics how the scientific process works and how we can use it.Now there was no need to piss off any parents on either side, our children can think and reason, they know the history of their species, they have a problem solving process, they can communicate efficiently and they can use math to solve these types of problems.Now they can go to college/university or study on their own whatever but they are functioning reasoning adults. Now go and find out where our universe may have come from. What's so wrong with this idea...Sorry again i have spun a topic way off course. We are supposed to be discussing if America is a Christian nation.
Hey where do United statesians get off calling themselves americans anyway. America is the continent folks and you are taking up a very small portion of it. It would infer to me that the thinking is that they are in charge of or the most important people on this continent.------------------
saved by grace[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 11-27-2002][This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 11-27-2002][This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 11-27-2002]

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Okay strike the prove God doesn't exist. There still has to be a building material though to support the building of the entire universe. So we need to know where that came from. Now there does have to be a chain or a jump a somehow observable and testable process of the creation of new species. Because unless i'm out to lunch that's the general concencus right, that we have species A dying out and species B at some point coming to exist from somewhere. (just an eg. trying to make sure i have the concept right.)

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You don't. Species A does not die out as species B comes to exist. Species A becomes species B. Try to remember that species is not a thing but is part of a classification system we use to make things easier to think about. There are no hard lines between species. Now, consider an ancestral dog-- something like a wolf. Look around today and you see a huge range of shapes, sizes, colors, fur lengths, whatever. What happened? Human breeders selected certain traits and selected against other traits. Are the breeds still all the same species? Yep. However, continue the same process for ten thousand years and the resulting critters will no longer be able to cross breed and we have new species. Even today we are dangerously close to creating species. Take a Great Dane and a chihuahua. I very seriously doubt that these two breeds would ever mate without human intervention. Even with human intervention a female chihuahua couldn't carry Great Dane pups. The pregnancy would kill her. A Great Dane female could carry chihuahua pups but the process of mating would be quite an ordeal and I wonder about the results of such a mating anyway.Evolution is the idea that the same thing happens without human intervention over very long periods of time, with environmental forces doing the selection instead of the human breeders.

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God has never asked us to throw personal experience and reason out the window.

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Yeah, he has. He does so when telling us to believe events that are flatly contradicted by everything we do know.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Now John that last statement is ridiculous. You're just lucky i haven't matered the force yet. God loves us very much and wants us to enjoy his creation. In fact he made us stewarts of it. And what a piss poor job we have done. It may be your opinion that God says throw reason out the window, but i think for all you seem to think you know of Christianity and of God that you understand very little. this is not meant in an insulting way, just not going to let a blatantly wrong statement like that one go un-touched.------------------
saved by grace

Funk, I'm disappointed. Out of that entire post, this was the ONLY bit you even bothered to address? You ignore every single point I raised, only to pull up another strawman on speciation and an ad hominem attack on my knowledge base? I did you the courtesy of addressing your entire post - attempting to cover every point you raised. You simply ignore me. Try again to carry out something resembling a discussion, or as far as I'm concerned you can go play with your bible in a corner and talk to yourself.

I'm sorry Quetzal I have spread myself very thin and did intend to adress more yet. But why say more when I don't know what i'm talking about, as you pointed out. I just wanted to clarify where i had been misunderstood for now. I was not ignoring the rest of your post. I have been accused of doing the same in another thread by schraf. it's not that i'm ignoring your point i just don't want to give a standard "Christian" answer. Because then I just get the standard "refute the christian answer."

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Now John that last statement is ridiculous.

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I know that you would like to believe so, but you are wrong.The creation myth:light created before starslight and darkness treated as entitiesday and night created ??? thought it was the spin of the earth ??? of course we don't have a sun yet either.a firmament created to divide water from water ???waters gathered unto one place ??? Does water look like it is gathered to one place?plants created before lightlights in the firmament to give light to earth. As pointed out, no spacecraft have yet to smack into this firmament.All in all, pretty much everything we know about astronomy contradicts the Bible.Animals created all at once.Then there is the flood, but you've been spanked on that one already.

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It may be your opinion that God says throw reason out the window

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When God and reason don't agree, one has to go. Take your pick.

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but i think for all you seem to think you know of Christianity and of God that you understand very little.

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Right, because I do not believe. Damned hollow argument.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

^^^^^^^ok... it's established, you don't believe...

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Originally posted by forgiven:
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ok... it's established, you don't believe...

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It is also established that God is telling us to believe events that are flatly contradicted by everything we do know.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

^^^^^^^fine ... given your definition of knowledge in another post, i wouldn't hang my hat on what you think you know

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*******sleeper********

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Originally posted by forgiven:
^^^^^^^

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fine ... given your definition of knowledge in another post, i wouldn't hang my hat on what you think you know

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Given your reply to that post, you didn't understand it.Oh, and rather than take pot-shots at me, why not address the topic?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 11-27-2002][This message has been edited by John, 11-27-2002]

^^^^topic? oh, christian nation topic? the one you addressed? gotcha

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Originally posted by forgiven:
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topic? oh, christian nation topic? the one you addressed? gotcha

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There is a chain of posts which, when followed, puts my reply to Funkie in context.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Now children play nice. c'mon it's only a conversation remember. No-one is going to change the direction the earth spins take it easy. ------------------
saved by grace

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by forgiven:
^^^^^^^

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ok... it's established, you don't believe...

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It is also established that God is telling us to believe events that are flatly contradicted by everything we do know.

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No. It's established that what forgiven and funkmaster think God is telling us to believe is flatly contradicted by everything we do know.FMF - you taken St Augustine's advice on board yet?