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Author Topic:   do you really Believe we are damned?
DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 1 of 88 (47112)
07-23-2003 3:00 PM


when I was christen(Catholic)we where told if you don't Believe in the Christ you are Basically Damned to hell......... if that God exists how can he do such a thing? I was told this and I was also Told about a Forgiving and Merciful God. I mean how can this God Condemn someone for Being Jewish , Hindu or anything else? they can't help what they learned with, they where brought up that way just like you where brought a Christen. and they really believe it to be true just as you do. and even an atheist This God Knows the way we are why doesn't God talk to his People anymore? I mean its been along time(to us) I think this is an important thing to consider.....
I like to call myself and agnostic though I am more atheist because I REALLY doubt their is a God.
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 8:42 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 2 of 88 (47158)
07-23-2003 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
07-23-2003 3:00 PM


Well the problem with people is they condemn themselves to hell in their own minds.Jesus says believe in his name and have everlasting life. Personally I think thats a good deal. But first you must see the error of mans ways, to deny sin is silly, would you call murder, rape, money, greed e.t.c. sin? If you don't and we don't admitt that we all have dirty hands in this world then that is foolish. No one can tell you you are going to hell, if you were catholic once and they told you this then they severly let you down. Jesus was offered a chance to stone a prostitute with sin remember, but he said to her he chose not to condemn her, as he is merciful. I find it a great shame you have this thing about being damned.L isten to me not catholics or religous people, you and I are in the same boat I have sinned and you have, but Jesus payed for all of us to get to heaven, try listening to his words and not ppeople's, for once and you'll discover a friend not a condmner. Remember even the jews expected the Messiah to come as a raging lion with legions of angels to destroy the romans, but did they get a condemner or a life giver who healed, I think it was the latter somehow!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 07-23-2003 3:00 PM DC85 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 8:45 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 3 of 88 (47159)
07-23-2003 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 8:42 PM


Are you suggesting there is no hell? I'm not sure I follow... what do you believe happens when we die without believing in Jesus? Because I'm really hoping it will just be quiet and dark and I won't feel a thing. I think this is completely reasonable and as likely as anything else.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 8:42 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 8:55 PM zephyr has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 4 of 88 (47164)
07-23-2003 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by zephyr
07-23-2003 8:45 PM


Well personally I think bad people go to hell. If I go to heaven and someone I deeply love is not there because they didn't believe in Jesus, personally I will be very upset and will probably ask to join that person wherever they are. I can only pray they do believe in Jesus, afterall Zephyr was he a bad person to believe in, forget the religious they are the people who offtrack you , the one who welcomes you when you are sorry is Jesua, the one who WELCOMES you has no ulterior motive because he loves YOU for YOU whether you are down and out and no one knows you , he is the one who WELCOME s you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 8:45 PM zephyr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 8:59 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 5 of 88 (47166)
07-23-2003 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 8:55 PM


I hope I'm not taking that wrong, but it sounds like you would question the will of God if he decided to condemn somebody that met your moral standards. So you would say "let me out of heaven" if the guest list wasn't what you would make it?

I think Jesus, as he was presented in the Bible, was probably a better guy than I will ever be... in the sense of doing good for others, being selfless and loving, etc. But I was raised to follow him as he supposedly lives today, I really tried for the majority of the years that I have lived, and I found it an exercise in frustration. I'm trying something else now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 8:55 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 9:07 PM zephyr has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 6 of 88 (47172)
07-23-2003 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by zephyr
07-23-2003 8:59 PM


All I am saying is that if someone I deeply love is not there then I would want to be with them, to hell with my morals they are nothing to do with it, they are nothing compared to the righteoussness of God.It's a shame you did not get what I was trying to say, I may indeed go to hell or heaven as I believe both are real, the question is if I can forget my morals and believe in God's son rather than perish why can't you. Ask yourself 'what if he is real, why didn't I just believe on his name?it didn't cost me anything?is it worth eternity ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 8:59 PM zephyr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 9:16 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 7 of 88 (47174)
07-23-2003 9:13 PM


you haven't answered me really is a hindu or some other religon going to hell? thats sounds like what you are saying
Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 9:17 PM DC85 has responded

    
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 8 of 88 (47178)
07-23-2003 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 9:07 PM


quote:
All I am saying is that if someone I deeply love is not there then I would want to be with them, to hell with my morals they are nothing to do with it, they are nothing compared to the righteoussness of God.
Umm, that's too many subjects in one sentence. So you would rather be with humans you love than with God?
quote:
It's a shame you did not get what I was trying to say, I may indeed go to hell or heaven as I believe both are real, the question is if I can forget my morals and believe in God's son rather than perish why can't you.
I may not have gotten it yet but I really do want to.

If I believed Jesus was God's son then following him would not involve forgetting my morals. You're losing me again....

quote:
Ask yourself 'what if he is real, why didn't I just believe on his name?it didn't cost me anything?is it worth eternity ?
Oooh, Pascal's Wager! This, at least, I recognize, understand, and can answer. The problem is that the "why not believe" proposition doesn't work. First of all, many different religions all claim believers in the others will go to hell. Statistically, my chance of picking the right one is almost nil. Second, if the afterlife does not exist as you say, there IS a cost. I will waste a good deal of this life (which without a doubt does exist) preparing for nothing. The Atheist's Wager says that I'm better off doing some good in the present.
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 Message 6 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 9:07 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 9 of 88 (47179)
07-23-2003 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by DC85
07-23-2003 9:13 PM


'is a hindu or some other religon going to hell? '

That judgement is for God not me, personally I think it will largely depend on what they did in their lives as I am also guilty of sin and I will also be judged.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by DC85, posted 07-23-2003 9:13 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by DC85, posted 07-23-2003 9:24 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 17 by NosyNed, posted 07-23-2003 11:19 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 10 of 88 (47184)
07-23-2003 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 9:17 PM


mike you did say if you don't believe in christ you will go to hell. a Hindu doesn't........ sowhat are you now saying?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 9:17 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 9:33 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 11 of 88 (47187)
07-23-2003 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DC85
07-23-2003 9:24 PM


'mike you did say if you don't believe in christ you will go to hell'

NO I DID NOT, you take this totally out of context I never said that, I may have in my babble mentioned hell but I have in no way said 'you are going to hell' I have offered even the opposite to this I said if someone I loved went to hell because they did not believe in Christ then I would be unhappy THAT IS ALL I SAID. Take it back or find the qoute!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by DC85, posted 07-23-2003 9:24 PM DC85 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 9:39 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 12 of 88 (47192)
07-23-2003 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 9:33 PM


quote:
NO I DID NOT, you take this totally out of context I never said that, I may have in my babble mentioned hell but I have in no way said 'you are going to hell' I have offered even the opposite to this I said if someone I loved went to hell because they did not believe in Christ then I would be unhappy THAT IS ALL I SAID. Take it back or find the qoute!


You didn't quite say it, but if it weren't true, then what's the point of him dying for us? So it was strongly implied.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 9:33 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 9:51 PM zephyr has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 13 of 88 (47194)
07-23-2003 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by zephyr
07-23-2003 9:39 PM


YES BUT it is not my right to tell someone they are going to hell as I would be judging them. Why do you want me to say 'yes you are going to hell if you are against Christ' what does it matter if I believe it or not? are you saying I have no right to believe in this? The fact is I am not worthy to judge a fellow servant of God as God quite clearly says in the scripture, you however are trying to get me to judge someone!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 9:39 PM zephyr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 10:08 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 14 of 88 (47203)
07-23-2003 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 9:51 PM


quote:
YES BUT it is not my right to tell someone they are going to hell as I would be judging them. Why do you want me to say 'yes you are going to hell if you are against Christ' what does it matter if I believe it or not? are you saying I have no right to believe in this? The fact is I am not worthy to judge a fellow servant of God as God quite clearly says in the scripture, you however are trying to get me to judge someone!
That's the last thing I would ever ask you to do. In fact, I find it one of the nicest things about you that you try so hard to avoid judging others. Believe me, it is appreciated.

I only said that your choice of words and known beliefs could have implied such-and-such, not that it was in fact your true position. Just remember that many Christians are very outspoken about who is going to hell and who isn't, and it irks a lot of us heathens, so we can be somewhat touchy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 9:51 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 10:16 PM zephyr has not yet responded
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 07-23-2003 10:46 PM zephyr has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 15 of 88 (47207)
07-23-2003 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by zephyr
07-23-2003 10:08 PM


Thankyou I really do feel like a one man army at the moment, facing five thousand. lol. you are right I dont seek to judge anyone and tell myself off an awful lot if I even vere towards that road.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 10:08 PM zephyr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NosyNed, posted 07-23-2003 11:22 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 20 by doctrbill, posted 07-24-2003 11:04 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
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