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Author Topic:   do you really Believe we are damned?
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 88 (47219)
07-23-2003 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by zephyr
07-23-2003 10:08 PM


Just remember that many Christians are very outspoken about who is going to hell and who isn't, and it irks a lot of us heathens, so we can be somewhat touchy

I try not to be. What would piss me off about being told I'm headed for a place that doesn't exist? If anything it's kind of funny.

But I do try to keep my own feelings about the destination of Christians to myself, and not mention that the puzzlement I suspect they'll feel in the hereafter brings a slight smile to my face. Oops, too late.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by zephyr, posted 07-23-2003 10:08 PM zephyr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by doctrbill, posted 07-24-2003 10:46 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8829
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 17 of 88 (47230)
07-23-2003 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 9:17 PM


That judgement is for God not me, personally I think it will largely depend on what they did in their lives as I am also guilty of sin and I will also be judged.

Well, thanks Mike that answers Pascal's wager above. I means that you believe that I, old theist that I am, have a chance of going to heaven too. It just depends on how God judges my actions over this life not if I believe in him or not. Now that makes sense at least.


This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8829
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 18 of 88 (47231)
07-23-2003 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 10:16 PM


Mike the one man army. I can imagine a bit how you feel. It is a shame that those on your side of the discussion don't hang around long. There are lots that pass through but it turns out to be too tough for them. You're handling it much better than they.

However, you also need to limit the number of issues you take on if it's just you. You might also want to do the research in advance. I don't think that there have been any new insights put forward here by anyone. The theological arguments have been written down and thrashed out for centuries. The scientific ones for decades and many good popular summaries are available and on the web.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 10:16 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 19 of 88 (47276)
07-24-2003 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
07-23-2003 10:46 PM


Threats of Hell
crashfrog
quote:
What would piss me off about being told I'm headed for a place that doesn't exist? If anything it's kind of funny.

Saying that someone is destined for hell was once, and may continue to be a serious threat.

In the New Testament, "hell" is given for the Greek Gehenna, which is a combination of the Greek Ge "earth" and the Arabic henna "scorched." This was a nickname for the Jerusalem city dump but is also descriptive of a military tactic utilized from antiquity unto this day. I'm sure you've heard of the "scorched earth" policy.

Christians may purport "hell" to be a place one goes after death but historically, they have brought hell to life: torching the cities of their enemies and burning their own dissidents at the stake.

The scorched earth policy was employed against Sodom and Gomorrah. Jesus himself threatened the same fate for those who resisted his politco-religious agenda.

I wouldn't take threats of hell lightly from the Christian quarter. Their understanding of it has been well defined in holy scripture and in history.

db

------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?


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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 20 of 88 (47277)
07-24-2003 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 10:16 PM


mike the wiz:
quote:
I really do feel like a one man army at the moment, facing five thousand. lol. you are right I dont seek to judge anyone and tell myself off an awful lot if I even vere towards that road.
Understandable and commendable Mike. Those decisions are up to your commander in chief.

You must realize however that the army, in which you are enrolled, has a history of bringing hell to life (I speak of Christianity in general). You may believe that they were wrong to do so but do so they did; the history speaks for itself. If God disapproved of their action it would be difficult to show evidence of it. They have thrived and grown and continue to spread their philosophy; whereby anyone who does not submit to their King is ultimately doomed to burn.

db

------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 10:16 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 07-24-2003 8:44 PM doctrbill has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 21 of 88 (47345)
07-24-2003 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by doctrbill
07-24-2003 11:04 AM


'You must realize however that the army, in which you are enrolled, has a history of bringing hell to life'

I am a follower of christ. I believe in Yahweh, Yeshua and the holy spirit. You say I am in an army of many but the word 'christian' does not fit what I am about any longer as I honestly dont know what 'christian' means anymore. I say I am a one man army because my beliefs are basically too different from 'christians' or 'catholics' I do not attend any church a I believe they have destroyed what used to be called 'follower of Christ' by threatening people with hell for instance. But Jesus does not say threaten people with hell and he also doesn't say you have to go to church. So my battle really is a lone one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by doctrbill, posted 07-24-2003 11:04 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 23 by doctrbill, posted 07-24-2003 10:26 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 22 of 88 (47347)
07-24-2003 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
07-24-2003 8:44 PM


quote:
I am a follower of christ. I believe in Yahweh, Yeshua and the holy spirit. You say I am in an army of many but the word 'christian' does not fit what I am about any longer as I honestly dont know what 'christian' means anymore. I say I am a one man army because my beliefs are basically too different from 'christians' or 'catholics' I do not attend any church a I believe they have destroyed what used to be called 'follower of Christ' by threatening people with hell for instance. But Jesus does not say threaten people with hell and he also doesn't say you have to go to church. So my battle really is a lone one.


Ahhh, the loneliness of the long-distance runner. Believe me, despite totally different beliefs, I know how you feel. Here's to finding your own path....
This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 23 of 88 (47356)
07-24-2003 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
07-24-2003 8:44 PM


Sounds Like Hell to Me!
mike the wiz writes:

... the word 'christian' does not fit what I am about any longer as I honestly dont know what 'christian' means anymore. I say I am a one man army because my beliefs are basically too different from 'christians' ... So my battle really is a lone one.


Sorry about that Mike. I think I know how that feels. There was a time when I would have given the same testimony.

...they have destroyed what used to be called 'follower of Christ' by threatening people with hell for instance. But Jesus does not say threaten people with hell and he also doesn't say you have to go to church.

I'll have to agree that he didn't mention church (I don't think there were "churches" in those days). But,threatening people with hell is another matter. Speaking of judgment, Jesus said:
quote:
[The Son of man] "shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand inherit the kingdom unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire ..." Matthew 25:33,34,41

Jesus sent disciples to recruit followers from among the cities of Israel.
Speaking of those cities which did not respond appropriately to his call, Jesus said,

quote:
It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Matthew 10:14,15
You recall the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Then there is the apocalyptic imagery re: what will happen to anyone not aligned with Jesus when he returns to judge the world:

quote:
"... if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 19:14 {Revised Standard Version}
{See 21:8 for a list of the sins which qualify people for this short swim.}

Do the Apostles buy into these violent threats?

quote:
"Christ will be King until he has defeated all his enemies ..." 1 Corinthians 15:25
Apparently so.

Sounds like hell to me.

db

------------------
Does anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 07-24-2003 8:44 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 07-25-2003 11:09 AM doctrbill has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 24 of 88 (47405)
07-25-2003 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by doctrbill
07-24-2003 10:26 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
Yes but 'goats' I personally think he means evil people, ofcourse I am probably wrong but I think the goats will be murderers, rapists e.t.c. As for believing on his name it definately applies if you want to go to his kingdom (I believe ). As he refers to heaven as 'The kingdom of God' he also says he is the door or 'gate' in which we must enter through. I suppose you could say he doesn't want anyone to go to his party if they dont even akcnowledge even the possibility that he died for them. I mean it's not a lot to ask when you think about it properly. I n fact its a ten second prayer. 'God if you did send your son to die for my wrongs, if there is any truth to this then thankyou Jesus for dying for my wrongs'. Now personally in a whole lifetime 10 seconds of prayer on that 'possibility' if you are not certain, is not a bad deal.For I think he will remember that 10 second prayer, and if you are that open minded then in my opinion your instantly a good scientist!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by IrishRockhound, posted 07-25-2003 3:27 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 27 by Brian, posted 07-25-2003 7:51 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 28 by nator, posted 07-25-2003 9:31 PM mike the wiz has responded
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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2479 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 25 of 88 (47458)
07-25-2003 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mike the wiz
07-25-2003 11:09 AM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
I don't think I've ever understood that part of the whole Christian dogma - that Jesus died for our sins or whatever. What exactly was he supposed to do? What was the point of this, or what did he do it for? It's never really been explained to me.

As for this whole heaven thing... by the rules of most of the major Christian religions, I'm going to any number of hells - they'll probably have to cut me up small beforehand . So to be honest, I don't care all that much about the opinion of the Christian deity - I'm more interested in this world.

The Rock Hound


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 07-25-2003 11:09 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 26 of 88 (47473)
07-25-2003 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by IrishRockhound
07-25-2003 3:27 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
Rock,

I don't think I've ever understood that part of the whole Christian dogma - that Jesus died for our sins or whatever. What exactly was he supposed to do? What was the point of this, or what did he do it for? It's never really been explained to me.

Nor I, it always seemed to me that since God is omnipotent Jesus never had to do anything for our sins at all, God could have just clicked his nebulous fingers & not blamed other people who may be innocent of sin anyway, especially blaming an entire species for some stupid tarts pranks in the garden of Eden. Could you imagine a christian allowing him or her self to take the blame for a murder they never committed, yet at the same time they accept that you are sinful for someone elses actions? You couldn't make it up, mate, you really couldn't....

Alternatively Jesus could have got a six pack, a pizza & a video for our sins, or thrown a wild party, including inviting the Jews & the Romans to an almighty bash for our sins. Or perhaps Jesus had a quiet night in after a hard weeks prosetylising for our sins. It makes no sense whatsoever that he had to die, in fact it is negligent & wasteful of God to allow such a pointless & unnecessary sacrifice for our sins, that, let's face it, aren't ours anyway.

Don't forget to be grateful.

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by IrishRockhound, posted 07-25-2003 3:27 PM IrishRockhound has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3002 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 27 of 88 (47474)
07-25-2003 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mike the wiz
07-25-2003 11:09 AM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
Hi Mike,

Don't go into one but I have taught a few lessons on the sheep and the goats and the goats are the people who say they are Christians but do not actually put Jesus teachings into practice.

Basically it is that 'not all who call me Lord Lord will enter heaven', anyone can say they are a Christian, but you actually have to prove it by doing good deeds. Jesus said stuff like when you feed the least of your brethern you feed me, or words to that effect. The Sheep are the people who look upon some unfortunate person and see Jesus in them and help them. Mother Teresa was once asked how she could pick up a total stranger who was covered in blood and sick, take them to a safe place and wash and feed them. She replied that what she saw lying in the gutter wasnt a stranger, what she saw was Jesus lying in the gutter and that was her inspiration.

Mother Teresa was a sheep, people who simply claim that they are Christians and do not put Jesus teachings into action are the goats.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 07-25-2003 11:09 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 28 of 88 (47484)
07-25-2003 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mike the wiz
07-25-2003 11:09 AM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
quote:
'God if you did send your son to die for my wrongs, if there is any truth to this then thankyou Jesus for dying for my wrongs'.

So, the death row inmate who has tortured and murdered people can say this moments before dying, and go to heaven, but the athiest, Hindu, Muslim, Bhuddist, Shinto, or whathaveyou who leads a moral, love-filled life, contributes to charity and is otherwise a wondeful member of society but doesn't say this prayer goes to hell?

God is an immature, egomaniacal prick, then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 07-25-2003 11:09 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 07-26-2003 8:41 PM nator has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 29 of 88 (47485)
07-25-2003 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by mark24
07-25-2003 7:29 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
quote:
Alternatively Jesus could have got a six pack, a pizza & a video for our sins, or thrown a wild party, including inviting the Jews & the Romans to an almighty bash for our sins. Or perhaps Jesus had a quiet night in after a hard weeks prosetylising for our sins. It makes no sense whatsoever that he had to die, in fact it is negligent & wasteful of God to allow such a pointless & unnecessary sacrifice for our sins, that, let's face it, aren't ours anyway.

Don't forget to be grateful.


You aren't supposed to feel grateful.

You are supposed to feel guilty and unworthy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by mark24, posted 07-25-2003 7:29 PM mark24 has not yet responded

    
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 30 of 88 (47494)
07-25-2003 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mike the wiz
07-25-2003 11:09 AM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
mike the wiz writes:

Yes but 'goats' I personally think he means evil people, ofcourse I am probably wrong but I think the goats will be murderers, rapists e.t.c. As for believing on his name it definately applies if you want to go to his kingdom (I believe ). As he refers to heaven as 'The kingdom of God' he also says he is the door or 'gate' in which we must enter through. I suppose you could say he doesn't want anyone to go to his party if they dont even akcnowledge even the possibility that he died for them. I mean it's not a lot to ask when you think about it properly. I n fact its a ten second prayer. 'God if you did send your son to die for my wrongs, if there is any truth to this then thankyou Jesus for dying for my wrongs'. Now personally in a whole lifetime 10 seconds of prayer on that 'possibility' if you are not certain, is not a bad deal.For I think he will remember that 10 second prayer, and if you are that open minded then in my opinion your instantly a good scientist!

Hello again Mike,

Sounds to me like you are still a Christian at heart. Still haunted by the demons of this neopolitan, quasi-pagan cult.

I couldn't help but notice that the prospect of their "hell" still holds primal terror for you.

In answer to the others who have responded, vis a vis, why Christians go on about how Jesus died for their sins, I have a thought or two.

He was the instigator of a would-be revolution which fizzled.
They were all involved (early on).
He was their best man, and he got caught.
They were all in it together, but he got the axe.
Too radical, too revolutionary, too outspoken, over confident. The leader.
They were all guilty of sedition. That was their sin. (their big mistake)
Only, He took the rap for it, for them.
Only, He died for it, for them, in their place.

Ah well, they were all arrested and executed eventually weren't they?

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 07-25-2003 11:09 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
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