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Author Topic:   do you really Believe we are damned?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 31 of 88 (47542)
07-26-2003 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Brian
07-25-2003 7:51 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
I agree !
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 Message 27 by Brian, posted 07-25-2003 7:51 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 32 of 88 (47543)
07-26-2003 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by nator
07-25-2003 9:31 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
'So, the death row inmate who has tortured and murdered people can say this moments before dying, and go to heaven, but the athiest, Hindu, Muslim, Bhuddist, Shinto, or whathaveyou who leads a moral, love-filled life, contributes to charity and is otherwise a wondeful member of society but doesn't say this prayer goes to hell?'

One person is asked to go work in the field and they say 'no'and go work in the field. Another person is asked to go work in the field and say 'yes' and do not go work in the field.

No one said anything about these people you mentioned going to hell. ONLY YOU!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by nator, posted 07-25-2003 9:31 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 33 of 88 (47546)
07-26-2003 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
07-26-2003 8:41 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
But Mike, way up in one of your first posts on this thread you did mention the idea of someone going to hell because they didn't believe in Jesus.

You may not be actually telling people "You will go to hell if you don't believe"...it is exactly what you seem to believe. You imply it in many of your posts.

If I am reading your posts wrong, then just what do you believe about the final destination of the Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, etc?

------------------
Asgara

"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 34 of 88 (47552)
07-26-2003 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
07-26-2003 8:41 PM


Re: Sounds Like Hell to Me!
quote:
No one said anything about these people you mentioned going to hell. ONLY YOU!

That's not true.

Didn't you say that nobody would get to go to Jesus' "party" (by which I am assuming that you mean 'go to heaven') unless they acknowledge that Jesus died for their sins?

So, where will the murderous, last-minute converter to Christianity go when they die, and where does the virtuous, loving, non-believer go when they die?

I am assuming that, to you, not going to heaven means that they will go to hell, but I could be wrong in my assumption.

Where will they go?


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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 35 of 88 (47596)
07-27-2003 5:32 PM


Though you guys are determined to get me to say 'these people go to hell' I am not going to say it. My only point was that you acknowledge Jesus' actions. I admitt I said his 'party' but I was just trying to make my point. Buddhists, Hindu's e.t.c - I never even mentioned these people, and why? because I believe that each individual case is for God's judgement only. My only point was that you should acknowledge Jesus' actions.
Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Asgara, posted 07-27-2003 5:43 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 45 by nator, posted 07-29-2003 9:37 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 36 of 88 (47599)
07-27-2003 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
07-27-2003 5:32 PM


Hi Mike,

Whether or not you actually come out and say it...you imply that to get to heavan you need to believe in Jesus.

IF a god exists...and
IF it is the Christian God...and
IF it is up to his judgement...then I prefer to use my mind and let him sort it out later. Why would we have to suspend our intellect and believe in something for which there is no proof if, as you say, it will ultimately be a total judgement call on the part of god?

------------------
Asgara

"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 07-27-2003 5:32 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by mike the wiz, posted 07-27-2003 5:55 PM Asgara has responded
 Message 39 by mike the wiz, posted 07-27-2003 6:10 PM Asgara has not yet responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 37 of 88 (47603)
07-27-2003 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Asgara
07-27-2003 5:43 PM


The problem is I am a mis-understood chap most of the time. I did not want to sound like the person who is condemning everyone Asgara, I apologise if it sounded that way. As I agree with what Brian said, also I do not believe it is just down to the prayer I mentioned, as I thought it would be an open minded gesture. To say, 'no Jesus there is no way you are the truth' is in my mind, closed minded. That was my point, and also akcnowleging the 'possibilities'.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Asgara, posted 07-27-2003 6:05 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 41 by doctrbill, posted 07-27-2003 7:15 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 38 of 88 (47604)
07-27-2003 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by mike the wiz
07-27-2003 5:55 PM


I know Mike. I really and truly appreciate how you try not to be judgemental. While you might not associate yourself with modern Christianity, your actions seem to be more Christian than many others that have posted here. I enjoy debating with you because of this.

------------------
Asgara

"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by mike the wiz, posted 07-27-2003 5:55 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 39 of 88 (47605)
07-27-2003 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Asgara
07-27-2003 5:43 PM


'you imply that to get to heavan you need to believe in Jesus.'

I certainly believe this one of the things needed, but Schraff is suggesting it will be ALL that is needed, for instance she says if a murderer says the ten second prayer he will go to heaven but a good person wont. This I disagree with as the good person is doing God's will,(hypothetically) that is why it is not for me to judge as there are far too many things to be considered, all I meant is it would be a good starting point in doing what Jesus wants. But don't worry I am pretty sure I will be accused of something else despite my efforts to correct my poor explanations.

[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-27-2003]


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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 40 of 88 (47606)
07-27-2003 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Asgara
07-27-2003 6:05 PM


Just don't expect me to act the bad guy .lol.
'cause I am not really, I mean for e.g I am probably the first in hell. I certainly dont think good people go to hell though, why? because I think the good guys are the good guys .lol
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Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 806 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 41 of 88 (47612)
07-27-2003 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by mike the wiz
07-27-2003 5:55 PM


mike the wiz writes:

'no Jesus there is no way you are the truth'


This still an admission of his existence isn't it? If he is real enough, then he should respond by demonstrating that he is the truth, shouldn't he? I believe in Jesus. But in a metaphorical sense. I believe he is the everyman warrior who dies, is martyred, for his cause, only to triumph, ultimately, because the cause lives on and better for him having been sacrificed.

(I don't like the last sentence , but I'm not going to tweak it.)

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


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 Message 37 by mike the wiz, posted 07-27-2003 5:55 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3001 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 42 of 88 (47613)
07-27-2003 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
07-27-2003 6:18 PM


Hi Mike,

A nice belief system that you have. It sounds great, everyone just has to be good and they go to heaven. I like this idea as it does away with the belief in Jesus as God, in fact, it does away with the belief in any god at all.

Also, if this is true, and all the good people go to heaven, the I will be having a pint with Reimarus, Strauss and wee Audrey Hepburn!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 07-27-2003 6:18 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Jake22
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 88 (47622)
07-27-2003 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Brian
07-27-2003 7:26 PM


I'd just like to say that any Christian who talks about Jesus or hell is being disobedient if he or she does not do so with the utmost respect, love, and lack of judgment, as the Bible says (I know some verses here and there, but I'm awful with the location, so forgive me). Obviously there are a lot of people who profess to have relationship with God but who do not show the fruit that is said to come from that. The Crusaders, abortion doctor killers, and others who disregard the commandments to love God and others are such people. When the gospel is shared with people, it should be done out of concern for that person, not out of judgment. One person put it well when they said that it should be like one homeless beggar going to another and saying, "hey, I know where we can find food." Anything done with more pride or judgment is wrong. I hope that makes sense.
I had so many things I wanted to say, but they mostly escape me now. I'll leave it at this for now .
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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2478 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 44 of 88 (47845)
07-29-2003 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jake22
07-27-2003 9:42 PM


quote:
I'd just like to say that any Christian who talks about Jesus or hell is being disobedient if he or she does not do so with the utmost respect, love, and lack of judgment, as the Bible says (I know some verses here and there, but I'm awful with the location, so forgive me). Obviously there are a lot of people who profess to have relationship with God but who do not show the fruit that is said to come from that.

Hey cool, this means that I can mouth off as much as I want about Christianity!

Of course, I'm not going to. But then again I don't need some book to tell me what to be respectful of.

The Rock Hound

------------------
"Science constantly poses questions, where religion can only shout about answers."


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nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 88 (47865)
07-29-2003 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
07-27-2003 5:32 PM


quote:
Though you guys are determined to get me to say 'these people go to hell' I am not going to say it. My only point was that you acknowledge Jesus' actions. I admitt I said his 'party' but I was just trying to make my point. Buddhists, Hindu's e.t.c - I never even mentioned these people, and why? because I believe that each individual case is for God's judgement only.My only point was that you should acknowledge Jesus' actions.

But where does the loving, virtuous athiest who has been a model citizen of the world go after they die?

They have not acknowleged Jesus' actions, but they have not hurt anyone and, in fact, done a lot of good for others.

Where does the murderer who converts just before he dies go? They have acknowledged Jesus' actions, but has been a source of destruction and pain during their life.

Which is more important to God; actions or belief?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 07-27-2003 5:32 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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