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Author Topic:   do you really Believe we are damned?
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 76 of 88 (48352)
08-01-2003 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by John
08-01-2003 7:08 PM


verses from the Bible which prove that 'day' can mean 'a long span of time.'

You are right... Bible verses cannot prove that 'day' can mean 'a long span of time'. However, physics can, and Einstien did, with "Law of Relativity". I guess that all depends on frame of reference, right? Hmmm... there's a thought.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by John, posted 08-01-2003 7:08 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by John, posted 08-02-2003 10:13 AM THEONE has responded
 Message 84 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-09-2003 3:27 AM THEONE has not yet responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 77 of 88 (48359)
08-01-2003 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by doctrbill
08-01-2003 12:03 PM


Doctrbill, I checked out your website and have to admit... you got some interesting concepts going on there. I like this one about Shabbat,

Quote from you site: http://www.sun-day-school.us/penalty.htm

I believe this day, at one time, may have been utilized for military training. I cannot yet prove it, but this would explain a lot.

Hmm... Very interesting. But I'm at loss here. Maybe I didn't read something else on your site that would clarify this abit.

ps.. You know, back in the "Dark Ages" Jews were blamed for drinking blood of Christian babies and/or using that blood to bake the Passover Matza. The result was persecution (and death) of many Jews.

another quote from same page:

The day is holy because, in six days the LORD made heaven and earth ... and rested the seventh day.

This is what bible tells us literally. But if you search for atleast a little bit of understanding underneath you got to come up with a question...Why did he create heaven and earth in the first place??? According to Bible, it is for us to enjoy and to fulfill our purpose in life.

So the whole week we work to fulfill our purpose just like God did. And on Shabbat we enjoy everything He created for us and celebrate whatever good we have "created" for ourselfs in that week.

With that said, it's Friday (Shabbat) and the sun is almost setting! I already hear the war tumphet. I must hurry and get to the nearest Jewish Military Center, I mean Synagog.... Maybe this is the day when we take over the world...

Shabbat Shalom!

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 08-01-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by doctrbill, posted 08-01-2003 12:03 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by doctrbill, posted 08-01-2003 11:30 PM THEONE has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 811 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 78 of 88 (48365)
08-01-2003 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by THEONE
08-01-2003 9:57 PM


I like your responses and have quite a lot on which to comment but I wanted to drop a quick line inspired by your last post, #77.

TheOne writes:

quote:
... from your site: www.sun-day-school.us/penalty.htm
"I believe this day, at one time, may have been utilized for military training. I cannot yet prove it, but this would explain a lot."

TheOne writes:

Hmm... Very interesting. But I'm at loss here. Maybe I didn't read something else on your site that would clarify this abit.


I doubt you missed anything. This is a relatively new concept for me and it came as I considered how a cessation of labor during certain phases of the moon might evolve into what Shabat (i.e. Sabbath) has become today. It seems clear to me that such a cessation might have saved lives and property at the docks of ancient Mesopotamia, in which region the practice apparently originated as an aspect of the religion of the moon-god.

By the time we get to Moses, the day-off seems, on the surface, to be a simple matter of good labor management. But the death penalty, which might have seemed appropriate in the high stakes shipping business at Ur, seems inordinately harsh when applied to anyone who works the weekend (if all it means is a simple day of rest).

Consider the circumstances:

  • There is an iron-fisted military government.
  • There is no standing army.
  • Men till fields or tend animals all week.
  • Twenty year olds are automatically conscripted.
  • The Temple doubles as an armory.
  • It is forbidden to do your own pleasure on that day.
  • It is forbidden to find your own way to occupy that day.
  • If you don't turn out, you die.

It certainly doesn't sound like R&R.

I do not mean to say that it was always that way but come on, let's get real: - A loving God who kills you if you don't enjoy the weekend His way? It's like a reverse Weekend at Bernies!

The priests, after all, worked overtime on newmoons and sabbaths, did they not? Even now the holy day of rest is often the busiest day of a clergyman's week.

Any thoughts? Any evidences, pro or con?

With that said, it's Friday (Shabbat) and the sun is almost setting! I already hear the war trumpet. I must hurry and get to the nearest Jewish Military Center, I mean Synagog.... Maybe this is the day when we take over the world...

Shabbat Shalom!


Every nation must sometime dream of taking over the world. Ancient Israel seems to have imagined that. But I expect the world turned out to bigger than anyone suspected in those days. At any rate, I can't think of more interesting characters whom I might be obliged to call Lord.

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by THEONE, posted 08-01-2003 9:57 PM THEONE has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 811 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 79 of 88 (48369)
08-02-2003 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Jake22
08-01-2003 3:27 PM


Hi Jake,

There are as many opinions about what Christians believe as there are denominations of Christianity - many hundreds, at least. You may define it any way you wish.

As for those who say that the days of genesis were ages, ask how the vegetation of the third age survived without the sun, which appeared in the fourth age.

The text says, "the evening and the morning ..." Not "the sun rose and set." The sun is not created until the fourth day. Perhaps this study will help you understand the ancient "science" involved in this matter: FIRE
The whole page deals with Aristotle's "chemistry" of creation. When you get to the end of the section on light, click on the link to a page titled: "More About Light".

Ancient "chemistry" was very different from what you learned in high school. You may have to dumb down a bit in order to understand what Aristotle imagined, but the man was a genius in his own time.

It is correct to say that Genesis WAS good science. It's just not good science any longer.

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Jake22, posted 08-01-2003 3:27 PM Jake22 has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 88 (48388)
08-02-2003 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by THEONE
08-01-2003 7:18 PM


quote:
You are right... Bible verses cannot prove that 'day' can mean 'a long span of time'. However, physics can...

BS. Physics can't prove a damn thing about the meaning of a word in old book.

quote:
and Einstien did, with "Law of Relativity".

Not really. I bet you can't get even close to a plausible scenario which incorporates relativity and explains Genesis. But that is irrelevant. The authors of Genesis weren't refering to relativity. They didn't know about it.

quote:
there's a thought.

Not much of one. It reminds me of those brilliant insights people have while stoned.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by THEONE, posted 08-01-2003 7:18 PM THEONE has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by THEONE, posted 08-02-2003 5:18 PM John has responded

  
THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 81 of 88 (48403)
08-02-2003 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by John
08-02-2003 10:13 AM


Physics can't prove a damn thing about the meaning of a word in old book.

but physics can prove and idea of a time flow in one place being different from time flow in another place with different gravitational pull.

But that is irrelevant. The authors of Genesis weren't refering to relativity.

No, they were not. They were refering to heaven and earth, meaning our universe (according to my religion). Relativity is a part of the laws of our universe.

Not much of one. It reminds me of those brilliant insights people have while stoned.

You should try to think outside of the box sometimes. Yeh, it is easy to follow the scientific process. But people who made any progress, even in science, had tremendous imaginagion. Let's take the same Einstein for example. He wasn't good just because he new the formulas, he was good because of his concepts (which he proved with those formulas). Science is a most powerful tool people ever invented. But as any other tool, it serves to accomplish a certain goal. And I don't want to judge anybody's goals here, but it seems that other people do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by John, posted 08-02-2003 10:13 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by John, posted 08-02-2003 6:02 PM THEONE has not yet responded
 Message 83 by doctrbill, posted 08-02-2003 10:29 PM THEONE has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 88 (48408)
08-02-2003 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by THEONE
08-02-2003 5:18 PM


quote:
but physics can prove and idea of a time flow in one place being different from time flow in another place with different gravitational pull.

Gravitational pull? hmmm... I believe that would be 'with a different velocity.' It isn't the same thing.

quote:
No, they were not. They were refering to heaven and earth, meaning our universe (according to my religion). Relativity is a part of the laws of our universe.

Interesting that you skipped the challenge-- the real meaty bit of my post.

I bet you can't get even close to a plausible scenario which incorporates relativity and explains Genesis.

See. That is what is so irritating about einstein/genesis/six-day/relativity claims. You can't make it work without massacring both Genesis and relativity.

quote:
You should try to think outside of the box sometimes.

I believe that phrase was invented by a group of people while sitting around getting stoned.

quote:
Yeh, it is easy to follow the scientific process.

You'd think so wouldn't you? Apparently it isn't all that easy, or we'd see more of it. It is probably just too much work to bother with evidence and logic and complete thoughts...

quote:
But people who made any progress, even in science, had tremendous imaginagion.

Of course, it doesn't follow that tremendous imagination equals progress.

quote:
Let's take the same Einstein for example. He wasn't good just because he new the formulas, he was good because of his concepts (which he proved with those formulas).

So prove that you are good with your concepts and flesh out the einstein/six-days claim.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by THEONE, posted 08-02-2003 5:18 PM THEONE has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 12:10 PM John has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 811 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 83 of 88 (48419)
08-02-2003 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by THEONE
08-02-2003 5:18 PM


TheOne writes:

You should try to think outside of the box sometimes.


There's a box labeled "PERFECT WORD, All the Answers You'll Ever Need."
It's a puzzle box you know.
Difficult to get in ...
Nearly impossible to get out.

Can you hear me in there?

Can you hear me now?

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by THEONE, posted 08-02-2003 5:18 PM THEONE has not yet responded

  
Pringlesguy7
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 88 (60230)
10-09-2003 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by THEONE
08-01-2003 7:18 PM


just one quick thing...
If you look in this thing called the bible, if you know a littlea bout it, you will realize that its original language was not in fact English, but Hebrew....so when it gets translated....their word for day....might have 5 different translations when it gets to our language, and vise versa. And I thought Einstein had the THEORY of Relativity. feel free to pick about my posts, it will make me look harder at the facts, and why I believe what I believe
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by THEONE, posted 08-01-2003 7:18 PM THEONE has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by John, posted 10-09-2003 11:53 AM Pringlesguy7 has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 88 (60264)
10-09-2003 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Pringlesguy7
10-09-2003 3:27 AM


Re: just one quick thing...
quote:
If you look in this thing called the bible, if you know a littlea bout it, you will realize that its original language was not in fact English, but Hebrew...

... which we don't have. The oldest we've got is the Greek Septuagint.

quote:
so when it gets translated....their word for day....might have 5 different translations when it gets to our language, and vise versa.

Might? You don't know?

Allow me to point you to other discussions of this idea.

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=114&m=1#1

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=2&t=1&m=49#49

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=33&m=55#55

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=11&m=59#59

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=18&m=12#12

Why the quibble about relativity? Its just a name. We say "theory of relativity" and "Newton's Laws of Motion." Relativity is as well supported as Newton's laws. In fact, relativity works where Newton's laws don't.
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

[This message has been edited by John, 10-09-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-09-2003 3:27 AM Pringlesguy7 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-09-2003 6:10 PM John has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8829
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 86 of 88 (60268)
10-09-2003 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by John
08-02-2003 6:02 PM


The measurement of time intervals is affected by gravity. Time is slowed in an intense gravitational field as predicted by general relativity. This has been directly measured.

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/GenRelativity.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by John, posted 08-02-2003 6:02 PM John has not yet responded

  
Pringlesguy7
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 88 (60327)
10-09-2003 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by John
10-09-2003 11:53 AM


Re: just one quick thing...
What about the masoretic texts? I believe those were written in Hebrew. These were copied by the masoretes(they lived 300-700 years before the Septuagint would of been translated)They used a complex set of notes called Masorah. I'm not a Hebrew or Greek scholar, but I know for fact that there are different hebrew words for "God" and they all carry different meanings.(that is just one example (yes you are right, i dont know everything about translating, but you must since you called me on it, so feel free to correct me whenver you see me misquoting my greek or hebrew" Also, through the years of writing the BIble, I dont suppose that their language might change some? Becuase I know that English is the only constant language. (sarcasm)

Yes, im sure they are both well supported. But something well supported doesnt necesarily make it true (im not saying that those theories are not true)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by John, posted 10-09-2003 11:53 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by John, posted 10-10-2003 2:08 AM Pringlesguy7 has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 88 (60382)
10-10-2003 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Pringlesguy7
10-09-2003 6:10 PM


Re: just one quick thing...
quote:
What about the masoretic texts?

'bout 1000 AD. Much latter than the Septuagint.

quote:
These were copied by the masoretes(they lived 300-700 years before the Septuagint would of been translated)

That would put them around 1000 BC. That is wrong. The group known as the masoretes editted and distributed the text between the first and tenth centuries AD. The oldest we've got is from appr. the 9th century.

quote:
They used a complex set of notes called Masorah.

The Masorah are comments about the text. They represent a thousand years of interpretation, not a guarantee of virginity.

quote:
I'm not a Hebrew or Greek scholar, but I know for fact that there are different hebrew words for "God" and they all carry different meanings.

I don't get the point.

quote:
Also, through the years of writing the BIble, I dont suppose that their language might change some?

Of course the language changed with time. But I don't get the point.

quote:
Yes, im sure they are both well supported. But something well supported doesnt necesarily make it true (im not saying that those theories are not true)

Please be specific. What two theories? What support? And of course well supported doesn't make something true, but it is better than not supported at all.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-09-2003 6:10 PM Pringlesguy7 has not yet responded

  
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