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Author Topic:   Can God create another God?
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 166 of 224 (482298)
09-15-2008 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Blue Jay
09-15-2008 6:27 PM


Re: Good and Evil
yes I read that post. Why not replace indestructible lifeforms with: lifeforms that are only destructible by Open MInd. See what happens then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Blue Jay, posted 09-15-2008 6:27 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Blue Jay, posted 09-16-2008 4:31 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 167 of 224 (482302)
09-15-2008 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Open MInd
09-15-2008 5:53 PM


Re: Good and Evil
So good is whatever God does? Evil is whatever opposes?

So good and evil can change their exact meaning depending on God's "mood". No?

If God is being vengeful, jealous, retributional or unforgiving then these things are "good" and we should follow this example. Right?

How do we know what is good and what is evil?

Unless of course we claim to know the mind of God at any given moment ;)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Open MInd, posted 09-15-2008 5:53 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 1:58 PM Straggler has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 168 of 224 (482404)
09-16-2008 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Straggler
09-15-2008 7:21 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Straggler writes:

How do we know what is good and what is evil?

Bingo, this is exactly why G-d gave the Torah. The Torah teaches humans how to do good and how to avoid evil. Just as a side note, where do you think you are getting your ideas of good and evil from? You would think that it evil to kill (this is only my assumption). However, many ancient people did not think that this was evil at all. Some people would kill others and eat their flesh. Others would burn women after their husbands died. Why do you consider it evil to kill? You may have heard of the seven laws given to the children of Noah. These are laws that non-Jews are supposed to follow according to Judaism. If you look at these laws you will see where you are actually getting your morals. 1. Do not worship idols 2. don't denounce G-d 3. Don't steal 4. Don't Kill a human being 5. Don't have relations with your friends wife, your sister from your mother, your mother, your fathers wife, another man, or an animal.
6. Set up a government with courts 7. Don't eat flesh taken from a live animal (kill an animal before eating from it). Do these laws sound like your morals? This is all a non-Jew is obligated to do in accordance with Judaism.

Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Straggler, posted 09-15-2008 7:21 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 2:36 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 169 of 224 (482414)
09-16-2008 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Open MInd
09-16-2008 1:58 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Bingo, this is exactly why G-d gave the Torah. The Torah teaches humans how to do good and how to avoid evil.

So the Torah defines good and evil then. Fine.

Does God herself obey these teachings or are her actions immune to such judgement?

The only way you can claim God is either good or omnipotent is by the circular reasoning of defining good and omnipotent in terms of God.

And then things get messy...........


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 1:58 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 2:52 PM Straggler has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 170 of 224 (482417)
09-16-2008 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Straggler
09-16-2008 2:36 PM


Re: Good and Evil
You have no definition of good and evil. Therefore, as far as you are concerned, these concepts do not even exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 2:36 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 3:20 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 171 of 224 (482421)
09-16-2008 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Open MInd
09-16-2008 2:52 PM


Re: Good and Evil
You have no definition of good and evil. Therefore, as far as you are concerned, these concepts do not even exist.

Ahhhh but I do. They are just not relevant to the omnipotence or goodness of God which is the subject of this thread ;)

So if God is the definition of good and the Torah tells us what is good and what is evil what happens if the actions of God contradict the Torah? Which are we to believe and how do you know which of the two to follow?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 2:52 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 6:12 PM Straggler has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 1938 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 172 of 224 (482431)
09-16-2008 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Open MInd
09-15-2008 7:11 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Hi, Open MInd.

Open MInd writes:

Why not replace indestructible lifeforms with: lifeforms that are only destructible by Open MInd. See what happens then.

If there is only one omnipotent being (God), can God destroy an indestructible lifeform?

If there are two omnipotent beings, can God destroy an indestructible lifeform?

His abilities are exactly the same in both scenarios, so the only thing that changes is His uniqueness. Since His uniqueness does not resolve the paradox of omnipotence being able to limit omnipotence, it is not the answer to this problem.

Open MInd, message #165, writes:

It is exactly the opposite case with Jews. Those who cannot stand the mental stimulation of studying the Talmud end up becoming atheists. I have tried both Talmud and Science, and I can testify that science is much easier than in depth talmud study.

You didn't start out this thread with this arrogance. Every other book of scripture has its proponents who will say this exact same thing for it, so forgive me if I think you're just belching volumeless propaganda.

Thinking is not just a derivative of the difficulty of the action or the amount of "stimulation" you perceive: it is the ability to consider the alternatives. Thinking ends when you stop considering the alternatives.

Despite your screen name, you have never once considered any alternatives to your perspective on God and the universe. Instead of considering the feasibility of these alternatives, you have tried to twist logic and arbitrarily assign caveats so that you can keep your perspective.

Somehow, this mental exercise sounds reasonable to you, not because it is actually consistent with logical formulae, but because it resonates with your preconceptions. That is what I refer to as a "brain fried by religion."


-Bluejay

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Open MInd, posted 09-15-2008 7:11 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Agobot, posted 09-16-2008 4:46 PM Blue Jay has taken no action
 Message 174 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 6:09 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 4770 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 173 of 224 (482438)
09-16-2008 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Blue Jay
09-16-2008 4:31 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Bluejay writes:

Thinking is not just a derivative of the difficulty of the action or the amount of "stimulation" you perceive: it is the ability to consider the alternatives. Thinking ends when you stop considering the alternatives.

Despite your screen name, you have never once considered any alternatives to your perspective on God and the universe. Instead of considering the feasibility of these alternatives, you have tried to twist logic and arbitrarily assign caveats so that you can keep your perspective.

Somehow, this mental exercise sounds reasonable to you, not because it is actually consistent with logical formulae, but because it resonates with your preconceptions. That is what I refer to as a "brain fried by religion."

You must have been reading my mind.

BTW, "brain fried by religion" sounds like a meal in a KFC restaurant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Blue Jay, posted 09-16-2008 4:31 PM Blue Jay has taken no action

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 174 of 224 (482459)
09-16-2008 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Blue Jay
09-16-2008 4:31 PM


Re: Good and Evil
You did not explain your religion to me. All you said is that you do not know what G-d is. Then you said that your religion requires little in the way of thinking. You then projected your religion onto religions in general. I do not hear you talking much about your religion. I am open to the challenge. I am open minded in the sense that I am willing to believe a religion altogether. The rest of this site is full of people that only believe what they can comprehend with their very small minds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Blue Jay, posted 09-16-2008 4:31 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Blue Jay, posted 09-16-2008 10:52 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 175 of 224 (482460)
09-16-2008 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Straggler
09-16-2008 3:20 PM


Re: Good and Evil
If you understood more about Judaism you would realize that this question makes no sense. The answer in short is that the Torah cannot contradict the goodness of G-d, and G-d cannot contradict the Torah. It is as simple as that. G-d only does good. He gave us the Torah so we can do good. Also, please point me to the thread where you discuss your opinion on good and evil.

Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 3:20 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 6:42 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 176 of 224 (482464)
09-16-2008 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Open MInd
09-16-2008 6:12 PM


Re: Good and Evil
If you understood more about Judaism you would realize that this question makes no sense.

I concede that my knowledge of Judaism is very limited.

The answer in short is that the Torah cannot contradict the goodness of G-d, and G-d cannot contradict the Torah. It is as simple as that. G-d only does good. He gave us the Torah so we can do good.

Are you saying that at no point has God ever done any of the things that the Torah tells us we should not do?

Also, please point me to the thread where you discuss your opinion on good and evil.

I don't think I have done a non-God morality thread for quite some time. I definitely have taken part in such threads previously however.

Lets not drag this thread down that route. Feel free to start a new one if you so wish. But as a brief aside, do you really think the non-religious have no concept of right and wrong? No morality at all?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 6:12 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 6:59 PM Straggler has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 177 of 224 (482466)
09-16-2008 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Straggler
09-16-2008 6:42 PM


Re: Good and Evil
I have a proof that anything that you can make up about good and evil or morals for that matter, makes no logical sense. If we are just an arrangement of atoms, with no free will, we are no different than any other chemical that exists. You cannot speak of a good molecule and a bad molecule because molecules do not have any intent. They are forced to do what they do. Therefore, a human cannot have any intent, and it is just forced to do what it does.

Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 6:42 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 7:11 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 179 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 7:13 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 178 of 224 (482471)
09-16-2008 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Open MInd
09-16-2008 6:59 PM


Re: Good and Evil
I have a proof that anything that you can make up about good and evil or morals for that matter, makes no logical sense. If we are just an arrangement of atoms, with no free will, we are no different than any other chemical that exists.

Oh God not you as well.
Is this the latest creationist craze? To insist that anyone who does not believe in God must also believe that mechanistic determinism is true and that freewill does not exist?

Maybe we are an arrangement of atoms so complex that we do have freewill? Have you ever even considered that possibility?

You cannot speak of a good molecule and a bad molecule because molecules do not have any intent.

Well at least we agree on that. You should however talk to Syamsu....... Apparently molecules, toothbrushes, paperclips and all sorts of other parephenalia have both intent and decision making capacity. Apparently this is the crux of the creationist argument. According to Syamsu anyway. You two really should get together :D

They are forced to do what they do.

Forced? By who/what?

Therefore, a human cannot either have any intent, and it is just forced to do what it does.

Really? Well that would explain why I kep responding to your posts. Despite my better judgement.........

This is really off topic. Maybe you should start a new thread?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 6:59 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 7:35 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 179 of 224 (482472)
09-16-2008 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Open MInd
09-16-2008 6:59 PM


Re: Good and Evil
The answer in short is that the Torah cannot contradict the goodness of G-d, and G-d cannot contradict the Torah. It is as simple as that. G-d only does good. He gave us the Torah so we can do good.

Are you saying that at no point has God ever done any of the things that the Torah tells us we should not do?

Just so you do not forget. Here is the question you previously ignored.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 6:59 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 7:32 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 184 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 7:42 PM Straggler has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 180 of 224 (482474)
09-16-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Straggler
09-16-2008 7:13 PM


Re: Good and Evil
That is correct. I know what many of your responses will be and I will post refutations as they come.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 7:13 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Straggler, posted 09-16-2008 7:38 PM Open MInd has replied

  
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