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Author Topic:   What is the Meaning of John 3:16?
jar
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Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 3 of 156 (191508)
03-14-2005 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
03-14-2005 6:10 AM


Can we all agree that John 3:16 is often quoted and that, like the proverbial Burma Shave signs, is ubiquitous?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 7 of 156 (191533)
03-14-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Thugpreacha
03-14-2005 6:00 PM


Okay. You'll have to be somewhat patient with me. I was at a party and John sent Bill to go buy beer for everyone that liked him. It was a long, long evening.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 11 of 156 (191581)
03-14-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
03-14-2005 11:32 PM


Re: since purple caught it first.
LOL

Afterall, if given a choice it's always better to be the scapegoat anyway.

LOL


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 14 of 156 (191588)
03-14-2005 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by arachnophilia
03-14-2005 11:41 PM


All of that is outside this topic. Here all we're trying to do is figure out what John 3 (and some other day we'll try get to the possible relevance of John itself). We're starting with John 3:16 since I believe it is so totally and consistently misunderstood, misused and misapplied. I gave one hint in Message 7 that may help explain what I believe is one of the biggest problems.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 16 of 156 (191592)
03-15-2005 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by arachnophilia
03-14-2005 11:55 PM


Re: i'm confused.
First, John 3:16 always gets quoted out of context. I hope to work towards looking at the line in context but first it might be worthwhile to try to decide exactly what the line itself says.

John sent Bill to buy beer for everyone that liked him.

John sent Bill to buy beer for everyone that liked John.

John sent Bill to buy beer for everyone that liked Bill.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 18 of 156 (191598)
03-15-2005 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by arachnophilia
03-15-2005 12:23 AM


Re: i'm confused.
What I imagine you'll find in near unanimity of current usage and no one asking the question.

But please remember this is only the first step, bringing up the question. I don't believe it can be resolved until we move on to look at John 3:16 within context. And I also believe that must be done in an orderly, step my step method or we will end up running in circles.

For those reasons, I'm not looking to resolve the question right now, only to establish that there are at least two ways the single line can be interpreted when seen isolated, out of context. Unless we can get that established I see little hope of progress.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 20 of 156 (191630)
03-15-2005 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
03-15-2005 1:26 AM


Re: i'm confused.
That's okay, but we're still looking at John 3. I want to try to keep this as narrowly focused as possible, at least in the beginning.

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 23 of 156 (191641)
03-15-2005 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by purpledawn
03-15-2005 7:28 AM


Re: i'm confused.
Very good points and your observation of John 3:18 will become particularly important as we move along.

John 3 is pretty short and we'll be returning again and again to it so here it is in its entirety.

1: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9: Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22: After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23: And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24: For John was not yet cast into prison.
25: Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26: And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27: John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28: Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29: He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30: He must increase, but I must decrease.
31: He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32: And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33: He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I would like to ask all of you to look closely at John 3:15-18in relation to what comes before.

Are there any difference in construction between those four lines and what leads up to them?

It seems to me that John 3:1-14 is a pretty straight forward recitation of Jesus teachings. He's speaking to Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees. Nic had some questions and as Jesus often did, he answers Nic's questions with a series of examples. In the conversation Jeus is clearly talking about man's relationship with GOD.

The passage ends logically at the end of line 14.

Then the whole construction changes, the speaker changes, and we move from a discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus to an outside commentator.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 24 of 156 (191642)
03-15-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Thugpreacha
03-15-2005 8:21 AM


Works again?
Could be. Let's see where John 3 leads us?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 27 of 156 (191651)
03-15-2005 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Thugpreacha
03-15-2005 8:31 AM


Transition?
As I read John 3 there is no transition in John 3:12-13. Up until line 14 Jesus is still speaking to Nicodemus about man's relationship with GOD.

There is nothing before line 15 related to belief in Jesus.

Would it help to step through John 3 from the beginning?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 29 of 156 (191664)
03-15-2005 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Monk
03-15-2005 9:49 AM


John 3:15
Let me ask you a question, if you please. Jesus is speaking beginning in line 5 through 14. Is that correct?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 31 of 156 (191667)
03-15-2005 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Monk
03-15-2005 10:31 AM


Re: John 3:15
I would say yes 5-14 appears to be Jesus' dialog, so does 15.

Okay, so in at least 5-14 we find Jesus speaking in the first person.

In John 3:5 he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, ..." and in John 3:12 he is still speaking in the first person, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

So first person seems like a reasonable assumption.

Now if you are speaking in first person and say "Do you believe in him?" are you referring to yourself or to someone else?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 33 of 156 (191685)
03-15-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Monk
03-15-2005 11:16 AM


Re: John 3:15
Okay. I believe that would be a reasonable interpretation.

So, if John 3:15 is a continuation of line 14 and Jesus is speaking in the first person, does the word "him" in John 3:15 refer to Jesus or someone else? If it is still in first person, why wouldn't Jesus say "... believe in me ..." instead of "... believe in him ...?

If we are suddenly switching modes, then is John 3:15 actually a continuation, or is it, as I believe I can show, a later inserted redaction?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 35 of 156 (191692)
03-15-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Monk
03-15-2005 12:04 PM


Re: John 3:15
When Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" is he referring to himself or someone else?

Great question and one that will help, I believe, in looking at John 3.

The Term "Son of man" is pretty common in the Bible showing up in Numbers and Job, Psalms and Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekial as well as other places. In each instance it refers not to a divine person but to Joe ordinary. It's only in Daniel that any other interpretation of the term is given. There, at Belshazzar's feast when Daniel is doing some legerdemain for the King the term is given a meaning beyond the ordinary.

In the earlier portions of John 3 Jesus uses references to the OT several times. He's also talking about individual salvation, so within that context is seems that when Jesus uses Son of man he's using it in the most prosaic sense. He's saying you can't get lifted up on your own. Somebody else has to do the lifting. And that's GOD.

As we move further through John 3 I think there are several other indications that that is the correct interpretation.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 37 of 156 (191696)
03-15-2005 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Monk
03-15-2005 12:43 PM


Re: John 3:15
Nope. At that point I think, if we assume a continuation of the conversation, that Jesus is using Son of man to mean just plain folk.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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