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Author Topic:   What is the Meaning of John 3:16?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 156 (191550)
03-14-2005 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by trent13
03-14-2005 6:45 PM


Scapegoat
quote:
Christ acts as the scapegoat for man's sin
Where do you read scapegoat or anything like it in John 3:16 or the surrounding dialog? Nothing I read in this dialog clearly states that Jesus was to take on any of our faults or sins.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 3:47 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 21 of 156 (191635)
03-15-2005 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
03-15-2005 1:26 AM


Re: i'm confused.
Although John 3:16 seems ambiguous as to who we are to believe in, John 3:18 is more specific.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned/judged, but whoever does not believe stands condemned/judged already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

The Book of John is the only NT author that uses the term only begotten son. IMO, our anti-Jewish author was trying to make Jesus different than the past kings who were called "son of God."

The author of John promoted the deity of Jesus, which went against what the Jews were allowed to believe.

IMO, making belief in Jesus as a deity an additional requirement was a way to keep most Jews out of the club.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 40 of 156 (191709)
03-15-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Thugpreacha
03-15-2005 8:25 AM


Tradition
quote:
Nobody can be a member of the family until and unless all imperfection is out of them. We are all not related to God in a familial sense because we have tainted blood. Only a virgin birth and sinless blood could qualify.
Where do you find this stuff anyway?
quote:
They were unwilling to lay their tradition and intellect at the foot of the man who was the path for them. He seemed so common.
From what I have read, the Nazarenes did not give up their Jewish traditions or intellects when they followed the teachings of Jesus.

If you read Jewish history you will find that many Jews who had accepted Jesus as the Messiah went back to Judaism when Christianity started presenting Jesus as a deity and by that time there was no man to have anything laid at his feet.

They were unwilling to break the commandment stating that God is one.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-15-2005 8:25 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 42 of 156 (191743)
03-15-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
03-15-2005 10:49 AM


Re: John 3:15
quote:
In John 3:5 he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, ..." and in John 3:12 he is still speaking in the first person, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
I feel that line 12 is actually the end of Jesus talking.

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about being born again, but verse 13 and the rest of the dialog doesn't truly address that subject.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 10:49 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 5:26 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 44 of 156 (191766)
03-15-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
03-15-2005 5:26 PM


Re: John 3:15
quote:
Regardless of exactly where it occurs, it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment.
I would agree.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 5:26 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-16-2005 4:52 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 47 of 156 (191878)
03-16-2005 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Thugpreacha
03-16-2005 4:52 AM


Re: John 3:15
PD writes:

it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment.

Actually that was jar's statement I quoted, I merely agreed with him.

quote:
The problem that they may see with you, however, is that you have reduced all scripture to fall under the auspices of human wisdom.
Exactly, human wisdom and creativity, which is what also created the doctrines and traditions throughout history.

quote:
Human wisdom is tainted by original sin
Jesus did not teach this. This teaching was created by man.

quote:
humans can not even be righteous, much less right, without the guidence of the Holy Spirit.
Another teaching created by man and not taught by Jesus.

quote:
Again, as I said to Jar, to allow such to occur reduces the theology of Christianity
Theology is nothing more than the study of God and religious doctrines, which is exactly what we are doing. I just look for the reality of what the human authors were trying to teach to see if they truly support current manmade doctrines.

quote:
and the proper homage to the Holy Spirit
Are you assuming that the Holy Spirit does not guide us to understand the reality of the Bible or show us the possibility that an author is being misused?

quote:
that tells man that if he acts good, he will get to Heaven
How to get to Heaven is another manmade game.

Actually, IMO, understanding the reality of the Bible allows people to realize that courteous and benevolent behavior is good for society, the family, and the individual. Mankind continually strives to embrace this behavior.

quote:
It is not a matter of trying. It is a matter of trusting. If we cannot trust the scriptures
If I am are going to trust the scriptures, then I must trust the unknown author and what he wrote. If I am going to trust what he wrote, then I need to understand what the author truly wrote and the culture that inspired his writings unfettered by today's traditions and dogma.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-16-2005 4:52 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 58 of 156 (191960)
03-16-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by trent13
03-16-2005 3:47 PM


Re: Scapegoat
quote:
I never said that the bible called Our Lord a scapegoat for humanity
I didn't say that you did. I'm asking how you get scapegoat and what it implies (taking on the sins of another) from the verse in John 3:16 or any of that conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus.

How does any of what you posted deal with John 3:16 or that specific conversation?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 3:47 PM trent13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 4:38 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 61 of 156 (191968)
03-16-2005 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by trent13
03-16-2005 4:38 PM


Re: Scapegoat
quote:
I don't understand what you think is not appropriate to the subject matter.
I didn't say it was not appropriate.

quote:
but, I agree with what you say, Christ acts as the scapegoat for man's sin, but only if we avail ourselves of His offering, by recognizing it and living our lives accordingly

I seriously want to know where, in this conversation that Nicodemus is having with Jesus, do you interpret taking on faults. Where do you see that message in the text of their conversation?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 4:38 PM trent13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 6:07 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 64 of 156 (191993)
03-16-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by trent13
03-16-2005 6:07 PM


Re: Scapegoat
See that wasn't so difficult. :)

All you had to say was "Because doctrine and tradition said so."


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 6:07 PM trent13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 7:04 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 68 of 156 (192083)
03-17-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
03-16-2005 8:48 PM


Exclusionary
Hey jar,

It is interesting that the Book of John and 1 John are the only authors to speak of believing in the name.

If we read the passage unclouded by today's doctrine and traditions, John 3:16 does fit with what Jesus was supposedly teaching.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that he sent his son to prepare the world for the coming of the Kingdom of God. (repent and be baptized)

God did not send his son to judge the world but to save it by preparing it through his teachings.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 03-16-2005 8:48 PM jar has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 73 of 156 (192310)
03-18-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Thugpreacha
03-18-2005 10:06 AM


Re: John 3:16
quote:
In context, there was at that time no condemnation for those who believed and who strived for spirituality
What were they supposed to believe at that time:

That what Jesus taught about the coming kingdom was true?
That Jesus was the son of God?
That the son of God was named Jesus?

How were they to strive for spirituality at that time?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-18-2005 10:06 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-18-2005 11:55 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1798 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 75 of 156 (192326)
03-18-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Thugpreacha
03-18-2005 11:55 AM


Re: John 3:16
quote:
They were to search the scriptures and believe in the Messiah.
You changed the noun, now it is believe in the Messiah.

Believe what?

Believe what the scriptures say about the Messiah.
Believe that the Messiah is the son of God literally?
Believe that Jesus was the Messiah?
Believe what the Messiah said once he had proven himself to be the messiah?
Believe others who claim someone is the messiah?
Believe that the Messiah will come?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-18-2005 11:55 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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