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Author Topic:   Evolution is NOT science: A challenge
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 526 of 591 (136408)
08-23-2004 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by jar
08-23-2004 8:33 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
Nothing. But what does that have to do with the TOE?
Becasue the implimications are that TOE disproves Gods creation.
I understand that not everyone thinks that way.
This is what I'm trying to point out here, and why TOE is sometimes like a religion to people.
you know its ok for evolutionists to put together a bunch of facts then fill in the gaps, and then call it true its ok.
But when a creationalist points out a bunch of facts and says TOE is like a religion, thats not ok.
It can't actually be a religion, or can it?
I don't know, if you spend your whole life preaching it, and trying to prove it, and devoting yourself to it. Thats pretty much what I would like to do with God the rest of my life.
So tell me, whats the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by jar, posted 08-23-2004 8:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by jar, posted 08-23-2004 10:56 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 528 by ramoss, posted 08-23-2004 11:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 527 of 591 (136414)
08-23-2004 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by riVeRraT
08-23-2004 10:04 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
Becasue the implimications are that TOE disproves Gods creation.
Nonsense.
TOE has never had anything to do with GOD or creation. Now the Creation Myth in Genesis is something else. It is, of course, falsified internally, Genesis one and Genesis two tell two different and mutually exclusive stories. It's like GOD saying "Listen folk, here is proof you cannot take this literally!". The TOE had nothing to do with disproving Genesis.
But when a creationalist points out a bunch of facts and says TOE is like a religion, thats not ok.
It can't actually be a religion, or can it?
It's okay to try to say that but it is still not true. So far, no one, including you, has been able to show and facts that would make the TOE a religion.
So tell me, whats the difference?
Big difference.
When something comes up that cannot be explained by the TOE it will be modified, expanded or replaced.
When evidence proves that the creation myth from Genesis is false, the Creationists try to fudge the data or insert miracle here to hold onto their theory.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by riVeRraT, posted 08-23-2004 10:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 533 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 8:40 AM jar has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 528 of 591 (136419)
08-23-2004 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by riVeRraT
08-23-2004 10:04 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
Well, no, TOE does not have anything to do with proving/disproving 'god's creation'.
It does disprove the literal interpretation of Genesis, but it is obvious that it is an allegory anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by riVeRraT, posted 08-23-2004 10:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 8:41 AM ramoss has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 529 of 591 (136428)
08-24-2004 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 522 by riVeRraT
08-23-2004 9:51 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
quote:
They also don't have to teach it as science, or teach it as Christian science.
The point is, that it happens all the time, yet it is ignored, and not taught in schools.
Mostly because man cannot explain it, and the people who are trying to explain it, don't believe in nit, so they give it a bad rep.
This makes humanity look really guilty of horrific acts. Take sub-saharan africa. Right now, certain countries have a 25% HIV infection rate. That is right, 25% of the populace in some of these countries are infected. Now we have a problem. Either christians are withholding this miraculous healing out of apathy or the medical field is keeping them out. OR, is this really a once in a while deal that is a fluke of the human body? No one is counting out the body's ability to cure itself in spectacular ways, but medicine is counting out the capricious actions of a supernatural deity.
Now, if you are sick where do you go? To a faith healer or to a scientifically trained doctor? Christians vote with their feet, and the vast majority rely on the scientific method to cure their ails. Admittedly, they also rely on prayer, but as many have found out their prayers are usually not answered.
To give you an idea of what positive thinking can do for a patient, read this article. In this study, doctors thought they were on to something with an orthroscopic knee surgery that was supposed to alleviate pain due to arthritis. What they found is that people reported the same recovery even if they were subjected to a sham surgery. Instead of actually doing the full surgery, the surgeon would make a single incision and then sew it up immediately. The mind and the body can do weird things, but often it is due to the positive attitude or the perception of the patient. The same could be said for similar effects among those who have strong faith in God. They feel comforted and strengthened by their faith and the body is better able to heal itself. Given the powers of the Placebo Effect, I would say that this is entirely possible. However, you will not see doctors handing out sugar pills to cure migraine headaches anytime soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by riVeRraT, posted 08-23-2004 9:51 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 8:50 AM Loudmouth has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 530 of 591 (136498)
08-24-2004 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 518 by nator
08-23-2004 8:44 PM


You missed the most important part.
I said most important you are a hating person. We know this because you said you hate men like me, as if you knew me.
It doesn't matter to me one way or the other if you are lesbian or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by nator, posted 08-23-2004 8:44 PM nator has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 531 of 591 (136499)
08-24-2004 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by nator
08-23-2004 8:48 PM


Re: In comes the cavalry
Do you disbelieve all of science now?
Nope, but I wouldn't teach it as proven.
To answer your question, the correct answer would be I don't know, and that should be the answer of people who believe in TOE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by nator, posted 08-23-2004 8:48 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by nator, posted 08-24-2004 9:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 532 of 591 (136500)
08-24-2004 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 520 by nator
08-23-2004 8:52 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
That is unresponsive, and it shouldn't be compared to TOE.
Also when I was taught about atoms, it was very clear that it was a theory because we could not actually see them. I'm fine with that.
Germs cause desease, we know that, we just don't know exactly how.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by nator, posted 08-23-2004 8:52 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by nator, posted 08-24-2004 10:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 533 of 591 (136501)
08-24-2004 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by jar
08-23-2004 10:56 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
When something comes up that cannot be explained by the TOE it will be modified, expanded or replaced.
But most likely they will only look for something else to disprove God's existance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by jar, posted 08-23-2004 10:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 537 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 10:01 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 534 of 591 (136502)
08-24-2004 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by ramoss
08-23-2004 11:05 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
You should be called Mr. repeater, thanks.
Or maybe Mr. obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by ramoss, posted 08-23-2004 11:05 PM ramoss has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 535 of 591 (136503)
08-24-2004 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by Loudmouth
08-24-2004 12:32 AM


Re: Faith in the unseen
Ok, so I won't go to Africa and have sex.
Healing is much more than what you think it is and probably way to complicated to go into here. But most Christains wouldn't get healed from a prayer, because they don't deserve it for reasons that only they and God would know about.
Also people do go to healing places to be healed. Sometimes it works, and its all based on the person and his/her relationship with God.
When someone lives in sin their whole lives, and then they are paying for their sins with desease, they then pray to God expecting a miracle. Then when the miracle doen't happen, they go to a doctor to get cured, and then they are mad at God or don't believe in him anymore, I think thats pretty funny how people could justify that in their minds. Its all in the bible how it works. Of course I am not talking about all people, because everyone's case is different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by Loudmouth, posted 08-24-2004 12:32 AM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by nator, posted 08-24-2004 10:23 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 540 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 10:44 AM riVeRraT has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 536 of 591 (136508)
08-24-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 531 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 8:35 AM


Re: In comes the cavalry
Do you disbelieve all of science now?
quote:
Nope, but I wouldn't teach it as proven.
Right. I wouldn't teach it as proven either.
As I have been saying, NOTHING IN SCIENCE IS PROVEN.
However, do you think we should teach the best current explanations (theories) that we have that explain the evidence?
Is it your point that if there are any gaps in the evolutionary history of a species, we cannot say that it has evolved at all, is that correct?
Yes or no.
quote:
To answer your question, the correct answer would be I don't know, and that should be the answer of people who believe in TOE.
So, you "do not know" if any creature anywhere has ever evolved AT ALL?
You "do not know" if we have observed any change in the alelle frequencies in populations over time?
Is this the case with you?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-24-2004 09:24 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 8:35 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 541 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:42 PM nator has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 537 of 591 (136510)
08-24-2004 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 533 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 8:40 AM


Re: Faith in the unseen
But most likely they will only look for something else to disprove God's existance.
Repeating things that have been proven wrong does not help a discussion.
The TOE does not say anything about whether GOD exists or does not exist.
You need to stop asserting that it does or that science does.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 8:40 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:43 PM jar has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 538 of 591 (136515)
08-24-2004 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 532 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 8:38 AM


Re: Faith in the unseen
quote:
Also when I was taught about atoms, it was very clear that it was a theory because we could not actually see them. I'm fine with that.
Then you were taught poorly or you didn't retain what you were taught properly.
Being able to literally "see" some kinds of scientific evidence does not have any bearing whatsoever on if the related explanation of why the evidence appears as it does qualifies as a theory or not.
Is the Atomic Theory of Matter true "enough" for us to teach it as true in science class? Yes or no?
quote:
Germs cause desease, we know that, we just don't know exactly how.
Um, what?
Of course we know how many, many germs cause disease.
Is the Germ Theory of Disease true "enough" for us to teach it as true in science class? Yes or no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 8:38 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:47 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 539 of 591 (136516)
08-24-2004 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 8:50 AM


Re: Faith in the unseen
quote:
But most Christains wouldn't get healed from a prayer, because they don't deserve it for reasons that only they and God would know about.
But what about the Christians who do deserve it but who don't get healed anyway?
What about all those sick Christian children who believe in God with all their innocent, pure hearts and who have never done anything that any reasonable person could construe as terribly sinful?
Why do they die?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 8:50 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:58 PM nator has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 540 of 591 (136522)
08-24-2004 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 8:50 AM


Faith healing
Also people do go to healing places to be healed. Sometimes it works, and its all based on the person and his/her relationship with God.
Don't even start down this path unless you want a severe whomping.
Many years ago, back in the late 50's when I was a volunteer fireman and ambulance attendant, I was among the first responders on a call for two kids that had been electrocuted. The elder of the boys, about eight, had touched a faulty sump pump and been shocked. His younger brother, about six, tried to pull him away and also got electrocuted.
When I arrived I used one of the pike poles from the truck to pull the two kids off the pump and began giving the younger mouth to mouth resuscitation and attempting to restart his heart as others from the department began working on the elder boy.
The oldest kid at the house, his sister I believe but it could have been a baby sitter had called us first and then the parents. I had gotten the kid's heart started when the parents arrived. They told us to stop and made us leave the kids alone while they prayed for them. IIRC, the family was Christain Scientists.
Both kids died.
I am completely convinced I could have saved the boy I was working on and so was the crew working on the other boy.
Now there is no way that GOD could have wanted those two kids to die.
Prayer is fine but don't even begin talking about Prayer versus medical care.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 8:50 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by riVeRraT, posted 08-25-2004 12:09 AM jar has replied

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