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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 122 of 280 (322023)
06-15-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
06-12-2006 11:14 AM


quote:
What have you learned concerning your overall views about Religion in general and God, specifically?
I recently attended my Grandmother's Catholic funeral mass.
I was raised Catholic, but hadn't attended a mass for years.
It was so wierd.
It was an altogether odd feeling to sit there through it; I felt like a complete outsider while simultaneously knowing the entire service by heart because I had been raised in that religion.
The stuff that was said; the comforting platitudes and reassurances...I just sat there (as an impartial observer at times) and marveled at people's belief in this stuff. None of it had any meaning for me and I really couldn't understand how it could have meaning to anybody.
...and this is from me, a person who was raised in that religion.
Forgive me, I do not wish to offend, but it all just seemed so...absurd.
Regarding the supernatural, which includes God and gods, I am what people would probably call an Agnostic or a weak Athiest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 06-12-2006 11:14 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 7:23 PM nator has replied
 Message 152 by mike the wiz, posted 06-19-2006 9:27 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 123 of 280 (322026)
06-15-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
06-13-2006 3:06 PM


Re: Belief through observation of others
Phat, I Googled "pastor John Aker" and I had zero hits.
Tell me why you believe that story, if you don't mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 06-13-2006 3:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 06-16-2006 2:52 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 125 of 280 (322034)
06-15-2006 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by CK
06-14-2006 3:54 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
He even went so far as allowing himself to be crucified. Its a measure of how serious this gig is.
quote:
is entirely the last line of persuasion you want to use on disbelievers in order to convince them of the "rightness" of the christian religion.
I had a friend who is an attorney, and he told me this story about one of the other lawyers who were working for a summer at the same firm just after passing the bar to see if they wanted to hire any of them. My friend is a secular Jew and was a Religion major at Oberlin College (a very good school) before going to the University of Michigan Law School (also a very good school), and the other guy was a Harvard Law graduate and also a very conservative Christian.
They were seated near each other at a dinner, and the subject of religion came up. The other guy asked my friend, whom he knew was Jewish, something about the how Jews viewed the divinity of Jesus.
My friend said that in the Jewish faith, Jesus wasn't God. "Just a guy", was how he put it, I believe.
So then the Christian lawyer asks, in all seriousness, "But what about the miracles?"
This was a Harvard Law graduate!
Anyway, I relate this only to illustrate that even someone bright enough to get to this level of education can still be completely moronic (and shockingly uneducated and ignorant) when it comes to world religions, including the religion his own was borne out of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by CK, posted 06-14-2006 3:54 PM CK has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 126 of 280 (322036)
06-15-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-14-2006 4:05 PM


Re: Not a Problem.
quote:
Basically you are saying that god is an asshole and that we have to kiss his ass or he will send us to hell.
Kissing Hank's Ass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-14-2006 4:05 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by arachnophilia, posted 06-15-2006 8:01 PM nator has not replied
 Message 167 by Larni, posted 06-19-2006 6:08 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 128 of 280 (322042)
06-15-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by iano
06-15-2006 7:23 PM


quote:
I got the same feeling at an RC funeral recently. The cloying, stilted athmosphere, the droning of the priest.
...all those references to God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit...
It was all so meaningless and absurd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 7:23 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 06-16-2006 6:03 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 137 of 280 (322399)
06-16-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
06-16-2006 2:52 AM


Re: Belief through observation of others
quote:
Bill Bright was a trustworthy source. Google him and see what you get.
I mostly learned that Bright founded the Campus Crusade for Christ.
What about this makes him a trustworthy source?
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 06-16-2006 2:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 06-18-2006 3:34 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 138 of 280 (322400)
06-16-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
06-16-2006 6:03 AM


...all those references to God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit...
It was all so meaningless and absurd.
quote:
In the setting you were in I'm not surprised.
Ah, so the setting in which Jesus and God are spoken of determines if I will believe or not.
That sounds very much like a merchandising/marketing issue to me.
quote:
A noteworthy if notorius former prime minister of ours died a couple of days ago and was laid out in an open coffin. The photo of him showed a set of Rosary beads intertwined around his dead fingers. The headline
At Peace.
I wonder how they know that?
They don't.
Nobody does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 06-16-2006 6:03 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 06-16-2006 6:48 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 145 of 280 (323150)
06-19-2006 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by iano
06-16-2006 6:48 PM


Nobody does (know were they will go after the grave)
quote:
Cept those who know where they themselves are going.
But you don't know. Nobody does. That's my point.
You believe you'll go somewhere, but you don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 06-16-2006 6:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 8:18 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 280 (323158)
06-19-2006 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Phat
06-19-2006 3:49 AM


Re: Belief through observation of others
quote:
Christians have scruples, and even among our own kind, we see the sharks. We know Pat Robertson has unexcusible flaws. We know the wolves among the sheep. We also know when a man shows above average integrity.
I have not found this to be the case.
Many of the Christians I have known personally have tended to believe another Christian is scrupulous and has integrity simply because they are Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Phat, posted 06-19-2006 3:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 149 of 280 (323162)
06-19-2006 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by iano
06-19-2006 8:18 AM


You believe you'll go somewhere, but you don't know.
quote:
How do you know that?
That answer is a bullshit derailing tactic, and I'll thank you to not use it again.
You believe that you will go somewhere, but you don't know that you will.
You cannot know because it is unknowable.
Nobody knows, but they may believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 8:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 9:11 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 154 of 280 (323199)
06-19-2006 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
06-19-2006 9:11 AM


quote:
Might I suggest that you believe I cannot know I am going to heaven but that I only believe that I am going?
We've been around this circular track before Schraf. Lets break out by agreeing to differ.
You are equating "knowledge" and "belief".
I am not.
There is no circularity on my part, iano, only your bullshit semantic games.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 9:11 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 10:29 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 156 of 280 (323215)
06-19-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by iano
06-19-2006 10:29 AM


quote:
You are telling me what I can know and what I cannot.
I know that there is a place called Wichita in Kansas, USA. I can go there. I can bring other people there. I can take photos and videos and even become a resident for a while before returning.
But even if I never go there, there is abundant evidence that such a place exists, and I certainly could visit Wichita if I truly doubted it's existence.
How do you know (rather than believe) you are going to heaven after you die?
Show me. Photos, video, whatever. Take me there. Show me bus schedules, or it's location on a map.
If you cannot (and I know you can't) then it simply illustrates my point.
Whether there is an afterlife/heaven/hell/whatever is a non-empirical question. There is no way to know the answer.
One may believe that they are going to heaven, but there is no way to know.
quote:
I am prepared to say my statement "I know" cannot be demonstrated without arguing in a circle.
Then you are using your own definition of "know/knowledge" which equates it with "believe/belief". (aka iano's semantic games)
If you were using the terms as I am, as they are generally understood, there would be no need for you to use a circular argument.
In fact, why don't you define your terms, here and now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 10:29 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 10:58 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 158 of 280 (323229)
06-19-2006 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
06-19-2006 10:58 AM


quote:
I know I exist. There is absolutely no proof that I do exist even though I know I do. It follows that I don't have to prove things in order to know things.
See, this is where your definition departs from the generally used definition of "know/knowledge". It is certainly different from the one I use.
There is plenty of empirical evidence, beyond your own assertions, that you exist.
If you want to use your more personal, reductionist definition of "know/knowledge" as you have indicated, then you seem to be saying that it is impossible to know or have knowledge of anything at all.
This means, according to you, that empirical knowledge and non-empirical belief are the same thing.
Edited by schrafinator, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 10:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 12:15 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 159 of 280 (323235)
06-19-2006 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
06-19-2006 10:58 AM


What's the differene?
Iano, is there a difference in the meaning of the word "know" as it is used in the following two statements?:
"I know what happens when one mixes vinegar and baking soda together."
"I know, in my heart of hearts, that he will come through for me in my hour of need."
Edited by schrafinator, : spelling again

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 10:58 AM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 161 of 280 (323279)
06-19-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by iano
06-19-2006 12:15 PM


Iano, is there a difference in the meaning of the word "know" as it is used in the following two statements?:
"I know what happens when one mixes vinegar and baking soda together."
"I know, in my heart of hearts, that he will come through for me in my hour of need."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 12:15 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 06-19-2006 1:41 PM nator has replied

  
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