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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 63 of 280 (321424)
06-14-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by iano
06-14-2006 9:14 AM


Re: very depressing view!
The outlook that a person would wish that there was no possible redemption for Hitler at all depresses me. That there be no way possible that his atrocious sins be forgiven by God.

Yes, secular morality is hard, iano. Sins are non-transferable. We have to live with what we do, and no kind parent will ever come along to relieve us of our responsibility.


'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 9:14 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 11:28 AM JavaMan has responded

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 64 of 280 (321429)
06-14-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 10:58 AM


Blind justice
The people who administer justice may well be blind but that is just their failing, not the failing of justice as an ideal.

I think you might be misunderstanding what 'blind justice' means. Justice is supposed to be blind in the sense of being impartial, i.e. blind to everything but the matter of the case before it.


'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 10:58 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 11:27 AM JavaMan has responded

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 109 of 280 (321735)
06-15-2006 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by iano
06-14-2006 11:28 AM


Re: very depressing view!
Thats secular morality for you. And the moral relativism that goes with it. Hitler 'bad', Jane 'good' - according to Jane of course! I'll warrant Hitler had his own views.
To the victor goes the definition of morality

Neither Hitler nor Jane are the final arbiters of what is good or bad - society is. That's what morality has always been.


'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 11:28 AM iano has not yet responded

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 110 of 280 (321736)
06-15-2006 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by PurpleYouko
06-14-2006 11:27 AM


Re: Blind justice
No I am not misunderstanding it as such, I am just applying my resoning to the concept of it that Iano is putting forward.
He says specifically that "justice does not care who pays the price, just so long as it gets paid."
I say that it most certainly does care who pays. In fact justice demands that the guilty party (the person that the justice system deams to be guilty, not necessarily the real guilty party) pays the price and specifically will not allow an innocent party to pay it instead.

That is justice

I agree with you about this. I was just being pedantic because you seemed to be suggesting that justice being blind in the conventional sense was somehow a problem. Maybe I should have kept my nose out :).


'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-14-2006 11:27 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 111 of 280 (321740)
06-15-2006 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by iano
06-14-2006 12:22 PM


Re: very depressing view!
It has little to do with the quality of the court. A person who walks into the police station and confesses to a crime will be arrested, questioned (Jesus knows all the details of our crime so makes a perfect confession). He appears before a judge who is only dealing with the evidence - justice is blind. "Guilty your honour" and sentence is passed. There is little else to it - decent court or no.

Your analogy is nonsense, iano, and it's actually counter-productive to your case. In law it's a fundamental principle of justice that the correct person is punished; if it were acceptable that anyone who confessed could be punished, the clear up rate would be phenomenal - every crime that gets even the slightest publicity has a whole host of kooks confessing to it.


'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by iano, posted 06-14-2006 12:22 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 5:24 AM JavaMan has responded

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 113 of 280 (321746)
06-15-2006 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Sour
06-14-2006 2:07 PM


Psychedelics and Credulity
Phenomena like synaesthesia, schizophrenia and body-dismorphia with counter-intuitive problems like Monty Hall convince me further that I would not necessarily trust my experience over science - in contradiction to JavaMan in his Problem with Science II thread.

I was going to reply to your post even before I saw the reference to myself, because my own background (including the psychedelic drugs) is quite similar - although I'm not nearly so credulous :).

My own opinions aren't that different from yours (at least your current ones), although I don't believe that nihilism or determinism are a necessary outcome of atheism and materialism.

The question of how much we should trust our own experience isn't really what the Problem with Science II thread is about, but I understand where you're coming from now. It might be worth you starting a thread about it if you can find a good hook.

P.S. Do drugs if you must, but not too much :)


'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Sour, posted 06-14-2006 2:07 PM Sour has not yet responded

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 114 of 280 (321747)
06-15-2006 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by iano
06-15-2006 5:24 AM


Re: very depressing view!
Admin unfurled the stop sign on our offshot earlier JM. No doubt the issue will unfurl again

I missed that. I should stop replying to posts on page 5 of 20 :).

As you say, I'm sure we'll get to discuss it again.


'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 5:24 AM iano has not yet responded

  
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