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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2814 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 241 of 280 (326736)
06-27-2006 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by iano
06-27-2006 6:06 AM


Re: Interesting topic
ok point one .. ill rephase who votedgod the power to set the laws ? if he is the creator he is responcable for all action of said ceation , why not make obedance built in ????
law and order by a dictator and not the will of those governed by the said law is not a moral stand point ...

born fallen .. so who LET us fall ..or maybe god is powerless in some areas ?? if sinning is our nature why should the creator complain ??

Foxes are only pest cos the farm TAKES over the foxes land , fox's where there feeding , then the farmer dumps a massive food stock in the fox's land .. hmm not hard to guess what the fox does ..
and the farm is not the creator , or the reason the fox is there .. god made man .. then shoots him for being as he was made .. totally differenet situation .. parents kill child cos child did not do school work .. is that your reasoning ..

QUOTE God isn't threatening: "Do this or else!" is a threat. God is telling us that we cannot do it. That there is no way for us to keep to his standard. As such we are rubbish and will be disposed of unless HE does something to change us, to transform us from being rubbish into something useful.Q

so now we are totally helpless and can only be save if god feels like it ... hmmmm wow we are really in the poo ...so he makes us a s rubbish then pick on a few , those he likes , and saves then , and kills off the rest ... hmmm nice guy ....

i prefer a god who will love a good person , even if they have never heard of the bible , a god who will not condemn some one for been human , who does not create sinners , who loves with out conditions ..

Edited by ikabod, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 6:06 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2449 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 242 of 280 (326737)
06-27-2006 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by ikabod
06-27-2006 7:19 AM


Re: Interesting topic
You've hit upon the reason Intelligent design is such an oxymoron - if the Christian God Concept was the creater - he's done a pisspoor job of it.

This message is a reply to:
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ikabod
Member (Idle past 2814 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 243 of 280 (326739)
06-27-2006 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by iano
06-27-2006 7:11 AM


Re: Interesting topic
Quote"""You are a manufactured good. You belong to him. God (for he is your God too) will 'stick his face in your business' whether you like it or not. He has every right to do with you what he wants.""Q

if you belive this i pity you , i hope one day you will find some selfworth and freedom for such tyranny ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 7:11 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by iano, posted 06-27-2006 8:36 AM ikabod has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 244 of 280 (326747)
06-27-2006 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by ikabod
06-27-2006 7:19 AM


Re: Interesting topic
ok point one .. ill rephase who voted god the power to set the laws ? if he is the creator he is responcable for all action of said ceation , why not make obedance built in ????
law and order by a dictator and not the will of those governed by the said law is not a moral stand point ...

God is the supreme authority. There is no one to whom he must refer in setting law. Now law isn't something he dreamt up. More accurately, it derives from his very character. If you take a close look at Jesus you see Jesus acting in ways which reflect Gods nature. Jesus as a man may attract or repel you - but he always acted according to the nature of God.

When Windows crashes on me, Bill Gates is responsible. He created Windows and all its good and bad is down to him. Windows has no free will - it cannot chose to do good or bad. We were given free will and so can be responsible for what we do. God is responsible for having made evil possible. But not responsible for evil when it occurs.

Built in obedience means robots. This is a lower goal than God is after. He considered it worth the effort to end up with people who he could relate to and who could relate to him.

Its not dicator its King. You are not in a postion to comment on the moral order of that. You can enter the kingdom as a willing subject or stay outside of it and be an enemy of the King. Them's d'options

bornfallen .. so who LET us fall ..or maybe god is powerless in some areas ?? if sinning is our nature why should the creator complain ??

Adam fell. God permitted Adam expressing his own will. The Creator isn't complaining about us being sinners. His justice demands that sin not be allowed go unpunished. Rebel insurrection needs to be crushed for the good order of the kingdom.

Foxes are only pestcos the farm TAKES over the foxes land , fox's where there feeding , then the farmer dumps a massive food stock in the fox's land .. hmm not hard to guess what the fox does ..

The farm is Gods. He didn't take it over from anybody - it was his from the start.

so now we are totally helpless and can only be save if god feels like it ... hmmmm wow we are really in the poo ...so he makes us a s rubbish then pick on a few , those he likes , and saves then , and kills off the rest ... hmmm nice guy ....

God didn't make us rubbish - Adam did. God is willing to recify what Adam enabled in us. He offers to rectify the situation for anyone - no one is excluded except those who would exclude themselves. We cannot rectify the situation - in that sense we must rely on God. But we can prevent his rectifying the situation - our choice to reject his offer.

i prefer a god who will love a good person , even if they have never heard of the bible , a god who will not condemn some one for been human , who does not create sinners , who loves with out conditions ..

In Gods eyes all men are born rubbish. "There is no one righteous ('good') not even one" and "all have fallen short of the glory of God". God does not condemn for being human - he condemns sinners.

He doesn't put any condition on our situation being rectified. If we believe in Jesus Christ it is because he has enabled us to do so - so that is not a condition of our salvation (in the sense that we have to do something to meet the condition). If saved, God has done all the work. If lost we have chosen that route.

Salvation is offered as a gift. If you want to hold that our accepting the gift is a condition then by all means do so.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 245 of 280 (326748)
06-27-2006 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ikabod
06-27-2006 7:27 AM


Re: Interesting topic
if you belive this i pity you , i hope one day you will find some selfworth and freedom for such tyranny ...

The alternative is to manufacture your own sense of worth. "I'm worth it - why - because I decide so" Worth after a fashion perhaps - but a very circular and subjective form of worth. There is no objective worth in subjective worth

Things are worth something because someone else finds them worthwhile. God finds us all worth the effort and grief we cause him. You can believe that he does or you may not. It doesn't change things.

Until the time when he says to those who reject him "Rubbish you insist on remaining - thy will be done"


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 246 of 280 (326760)
06-27-2006 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by CK
06-27-2006 7:23 AM


God: the genius
if the Christian God Concept was the creater - he's done a pisspoor job of it.

I think it was the work of sheer genius myself given all that has to be woven together.

An illustration I've heard before is the one where what we see from our perspective is the underside of a tapestry that is being woven: a crazy maze of looses, straggeldy threads of all kinds of colours. Order is kind of apparent but disorder seems to rule the roost.

Then the tapestry gets turned over and we see what has been woven.

As the man says, you cannot make an omlette without breaking eggs.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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ikabod
Member (Idle past 2814 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 247 of 280 (326767)
06-27-2006 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by iano
06-27-2006 8:31 AM


Re: Interesting topic
Iano writes:

God is responsible for having made evil possible. But not responsible for evil when it occurs.

then god should not get in a huff when evil occurs ....if you dont want someone to drown .. dont drop them in the middle of a ocean .....

Iano writes:

Its not dicator its King. You are not in a postion to comment on the moral order of that. You can enter the kingdom as a willing subject or stay outside of it and be an enemy of the King. Them's d'options

err king is a sole dictator be default ... strange how in most human cultures kings have been replaced by republics or democracy ... swo your view is follow the party line or be a enemy of the state .. no right to a free choice of how to live your life ...

Iano writes:

Adam fell. God permitted Adam expressing his own will. The Creator isn't complaining about us being sinners. His justice demands that sin not be allowed go unpunished. Rebel insurrection needs to be crushed for the good order of the kingdom.

so adam fell did he , hmmm seem a set up job .. "now no pick this fruit here , this big one here , keep off , may be a fence or a locked door would be a good idea ..... like we dont all know human nature ,,,, and any way how long is god going to be miffed .. how many generations will he pick on us cos one person did a naughty thing ... is there no chance of a retrial ??? no forgiveness , i mean i claim mental issues .. i mean a talking snake spoke to the women ..yet right ...

Iano writes:

He doesn't put any condition on our situation being rectified. If we believe in Jesus Christ it is because he has enabled us to do so - so that is not a condition of our salvation (in the sense that we have to do something to meet the condition). If saved, God has done all the work. If lost we have chosen that route.

if no conditions we can do anything ??
so we cant find christ unless god lets us .. we can not save ourselves ???
so god does all the work .. we are not invold ?? we cant help or hinder .. we are with out purpose or reason mere toys to be platyed with ??
how can we chose the wrong route , you just said god does it all ???

Edited by AdminPhat, : Showing Ichabod how to use the quote feature....(Push peek to see how I did it.)


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Replies to this message:
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ikabod
Member (Idle past 2814 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 248 of 280 (326771)
06-27-2006 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by iano
06-27-2006 8:36 AM


Re: Interesting topic
no ...selfworth is know that you can make a difference , you can achive ,you can see your self as having value because you are you and you can do things in the world

you can then go out and be nice to fellow humans ,help the less blessed , give to the community ...not cos so judgemental being is watching , but be cause you chosse to do so , and in doing so you you see you deeds generate there own rewards , a smile , a thank you , a friendship , love .... and at the same time you can reject dogma and expresse your self

what god that is good would condemn a man who is true , honest , loving , charitable and yet declines to follow the church/scriptures of that god ....

If you think you only have value cos your master gives it to you then you name yourself slave .... and you bind yourself in chains stronger that any iron ...

history has show how one person can make a difference , how a slave can find freedom for others even at the greats of costs ,

I'm worth it - why - because I decide so

no I'm worth it - why - because I decide to be worth it , i will set myself standards , and when i fail i will know and i will accept my failure and still i will strive , and i will stand up to anyone who tries to devalue me ..

put not you value in the praise of others .. but consider your heart when you are alone ..


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ikabod
Member (Idle past 2814 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 249 of 280 (326776)
06-27-2006 10:10 AM


sorry everyone for using up the space in this topic i will restrain myself hence forth ..

  
iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 250 of 280 (326777)
06-27-2006 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by ikabod
06-27-2006 9:30 AM


Re: Interesting topic
Quote ... God is responsible for having made evil possible. But not responsible for evil when it occurs. Q then god should not get in a huff when evil occurs ....if you dont want someone to drown .. dont drop them in the middle of a ocean

God permits man to commit evil if man wants. But God warns that there is punishment for the evil that man does. Surely any natural sense of Justice you hold to permits that notion some airtime

"Keep off the Grass" can be ignored as can "30mph". You pays your money

err king is a sole dictator be default ... strange how in most human cultures kings have been replaced by republics or democracy ... swo your view is follow the party line or be a enemy of the state .. no right to a free choice of how to live your life ...

This is one King who cannot be usurped.

There are two ways I can express choice: within the boundaries he finds acceptable or outside the boundaries he finds acceptable. I accepted his offer to make it possible for me to return to exercising my free will within his boundaries. I could have rejected his offer which would make this possible - I chose not to. It was an exercise of my free will. That is my salvation dealt with.

som adam fell did he , hmmm seem a set up job .. "now no pick this fruit here , this big one here , keep off , may be a fence or a locked door would be a good idea ..... like we dont all know human nature ,,,, and any way how long is god going to be miffed .. how many generations will he pick on us cos one person did a naughty thing ... is there no chance of a retrial ??? no forgiveness , i mean i claim mental issues .. i mean a talking snake spoke to the women ..yet right ...

You invoke human nature as if you know human nature. But the only human nature you know of is fallen human nature (which has a propensity/desire towards sin). This wasn't Adams nature so the comparison is a poor one

He's not picking on anyone. Adam injected himself with a disease in sinning. He passed on the corruption down the line. You can blame him for our sinful nature. Not for our own sin however - that we chose to inject ourselves - addicts to sin that we are

Forgiveness is available to all: from Mother Theresa to Hitler. The only sin God will not forgive (because he cannot) is the sin of refusing his offer to forgive. The unforgivable sin.

if no conditions we can do anything ??

There are no conditions we have to fulfil in order to be saved in the sense that we do not have to jump through any hoops

so we cant find christ unless god lets us .. we can not save ourselves ???

We cannot save ourselves, no. There is nothing we can do. What do you suggest we could do?

so god does all the work .. we are not invold ?? we cant help or hinder .. we are with out purpose or reason mere toys to be platyed with ??

We cannot help but I didn't say we could not hinder. Read it again. If a man is saved then it is the result of Gods actions. If a man is lost it is because he rejected Gods attempts to save him. Man loses himself if he is lost

how can we chose the wrong route , you just said god does it all ???

The above may clarify


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 Message 247 by ikabod, posted 06-27-2006 9:30 AM ikabod has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17573
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 251 of 280 (326788)
06-27-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by iano
06-27-2006 10:12 AM


iano writes:

God permits man to commit evil if man wants. But God warns that there is punishment for the evil that man does. Surely any natural sense of Justice you hold to permits that notion some airtime

Of course not. That notion is sheer nonsense.

God can warn us of natural consequences - e.g. step off a cliff and you fall - not that we need those warnings from an external source. But He doesn't have to provide additional consequences - i.e. "punishment". If He did that, it would be vengeance, not justice.

There are two ways I can express choice: within the boundaries he finds acceptable or outside the boundaries he finds acceptable.

The boundaries are there for our benefit - not God's. If we step outside the boundaries, there are natural consequences. There is no need for additional punishment.

Think of a mother telling her child not to play on the street. If he disobeys, there are natural consequences - he might get hit by a car. There is no need for him to be punished on top of that.

Will he learn from a spanking not to disobey? Maybe. But that isn't the kind of punishment you're talking about, is it? You seem to be talking about spanking the child in the hospital, after he has already suffered the consequences of his actions.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 252 of 280 (326880)
06-27-2006 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by iano
06-27-2006 8:36 AM


Re: Interesting topic
Iano writes:

There is no objective worth in subjective worth

I think this highlights part of your position Iano; you appear to need this absolute. It appears that self worth does not cut it for you. It appears that you need worth granted to you by a higher power.

Am I in the right ball park?

Btw can you answer my question about the Neanderthals yet?


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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 253 of 280 (326881)
06-27-2006 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by ikabod
06-27-2006 9:47 AM


Re: Interesting topic
ikabod writes:

no I'm worth it - why - because I decide to be worth it , i will set myself standards , and when i fail i will know and i will accept my failure and still i will strive , and i will stand up to anyone who tries to devalue me ..

Well said that man.


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iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 254 of 280 (327065)
06-28-2006 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Larni
06-27-2006 3:41 PM


Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
I think this highlights part of your position Iano; you appear to need this absolute. It appears that self worth does not cut it for you. It appears that you need worth granted to you by a higher power

Q: Who am I?

Q: Why am I here?

Q: Where am I going?

Three central questions which mankind has struggled with in one form or another since man began to ask questions.

A: You are a man, a being created in Gods image and likeness. If you want further sub-definition, ask Him.

A: Your chief purpose is to know God and enjoy him forever

A: Heaven (his choice) or Hell (your choice)

Three definitive answers to three unavoidable questions. Mans alternative efforts have produced a bewildering variety of half-starts, dead-ends and possibly-maybes. A result of his search for absolutes. Man craves absolutes. He buys a piece of expensive jewelery for his wife but checks the hallmark before he does so. He builds his buildings, road and adult toys using instruments which are calibrated against carefully controlled standards, whose temperature, pressure and humidity controlled storage evirons ensure absoluteness as certainly as can be acheived. Even his tentitive science is a struggle to eliminate the inherant tentitivity. When it approaches close enough to what is supposed to be the line of absolute, man rejoices in and is comforted by the virtual Fact he can now enscribe in stone.

For his sense of self-worth, he measures himself against completely arbitary and self-defined standards of worth: the money he earns, the car he drives, the beauty of his wife, his giving to charity, the letters after his name - to name but a few of the more common.

Self-defined worth doesn't cut it for me because cut it cannot. By definition. One cannot be sure if one is worth anything once it is accepted that there is no standard against which to measure worth. For seeking to measure your worth against standards arising out of others mens need to establish their own worth is an arguing in a circle.

"I'm worth it. Why? Because other men who are similarily looking to establish their worth say so!"

Simply dotty.

Btw can you answer my question about the Neanderthals yet?

This question arose out of a previous question regarding the salvation of people pre-Christ. Do read the answer I gave - it is not difficult to understand. No True Neandrathal is my short answer to you otherwise.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 255 of 280 (327084)
06-28-2006 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by iano
06-28-2006 6:52 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Iano writes:

Three definitive answers to three unavoidable questions.

I did ask questions similar to the ones you stated, but after some time trying to find aboslute answers (as a child) it dawned on me that there does not have be be answers.

Q: Who am I?
A: Who I have grown up to become. We change so quickly that to try to define oneself down to one 'self' limits ones ones potential. We are what we see our self to be; no absolutes needed.

Q: Why am I here?
A: Because my parents gave birth to me. You could regress this back to the abiogenisis if you care but why? You can pick many answers to this question, probably an infinite amount. All are equally valid; no abosolutes needed.

Q: Where am I going?
A: My future is unknown except in vague terms. I have plans for my life but shit happens. I don't worry about where I am going, I get on with whats happening now. The best you can do is react to whats happening at the moment. Reacting to what may happen just leads to worrying and stress.

Iano writes:

No True Neandrathal is my short answer to you otherwise.

I did not understand your post re: Neanderthals, nor do I understand this statement.

Can you tell me where the Neanderthals went when they died?

If yes, please tell me where they go.


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