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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3122
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 271 of 280 (327420)
06-29-2006 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by iano
06-29-2006 7:52 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Funny thing about that.

There are many places in the New Testament that talk about BY THEIR WORKS. Doesn't say a thing about 'faith alone'. That 'alone' was added by Martin Luthor. When it was pointed out that it the bible didn't say 'BY faith alone', he retorted' It should have.

Yet, the sheep and the goats are seperated by their works.

And, of course, the Gospel of James is very specific about that.


"Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." --James 2:21-24


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 7:52 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 8:13 AM ramoss has not yet responded
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iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 272 of 280 (327423)
06-29-2006 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by ramoss
06-29-2006 7:58 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Yet, the sheep and the goats are seperated by their works.

Option 1:

Works the cause of them being deemed sheep.

Option 2:

Works a consequence of them being sheep in the first place.

You say 1 - I say 2. No conclusion based on this passage.


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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 273 of 280 (327442)
06-29-2006 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by iano
06-29-2006 8:13 AM


Re: Why? Because Jennifer says your worth it
Iano writes:

No conclusion based on this passage.

James writes:

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." --James 2:21-24


Looks pretty specific to me.
You can read? Right? ;)

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 Message 272 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 8:13 AM iano has responded

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lfen
Member (Idle past 2965 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 274 of 280 (327443)
06-29-2006 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by ramoss
06-29-2006 7:58 AM


What did James mean by "not by faith alone."?
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." --James 2:21-24"

Ian,

This is the statement that needs addressing. I read James as saying that faith is neccesary but not sufficient. That both doing AND faith are required. How do you read it?

lfen


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iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 275 of 280 (327451)
06-29-2006 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by PurpleYouko
06-29-2006 10:02 AM


A verse out of water
Looks pretty specific to me.

Your doing the same that the Matthew 25-ists do. Taking a verse out of context and forming a doctrine around it. When people say you can make the Bible say anything at all they are referring to this kind of thing.

Here we have the same thing as I suggested is the dilemma contained in some folks analysis of Matthew 25.(which contains some interesting litte nuggests which causes HMS Works to list even more). Are we speaking cause or consequence. The link below makes the full argument of what James is dealing with in the passage: useless faith (even the demons believe in God) compared to saving faith.

If a person has genuine faith then good works will follow: consequence.

The saved person is a sheep, they will hear his voice - consequence

The saved person loves Jesus, they will obey his commands - consequence

Carm.org writes:

James is simply saying that if you ‘say' you are a Christian, then there had better be some appropriate works manifested or your faith is false. This sentiment is echoed in 1 John 2:4 which says, "If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar."

Apparently, there were people who were saying they were Christians, but were not manifesting any of the fruit of Christianity. Can this faith justify? Can the dead ‘faith' that someone has which produces no change in a person and no good works before men and God be a faith that justifies? Absolutely not. It is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons: "We believe Jesus lived."

the complete article

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-29-2006 10:02 AM PurpleYouko has responded

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iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 276 of 280 (327460)
06-29-2006 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by lfen
06-29-2006 10:02 AM


Re: What did James mean by "not by faith alone."?
The post above gives the basic argument. The position is that on being saved a person received Gods holy spirit in dwelling. The purpose and activity of the Spirits indwellng is to cause us, the grafted-to-the-root(Jesus) branches to produce good fruit (works). The root is the source of the fruit - the branches are vehicles for bearing it.

Philipians 2 writes:

12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure

A Christian is to work out (express out, exude out) what God is working into them. And if they are Christians then this will happen. It is a promise

Phillipians 1:6 writes:

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

These sheep may go astray, they may get entangled in the briars of sin. But the good shepherd will go find them and bring them back into the fold.


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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 277 of 280 (327472)
06-29-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by iano
06-29-2006 10:20 AM


Re: A verse out of water
Your doing the same that the Matthew 25-ists do. Taking a verse out of context and forming a doctrine around it. When people say you can make the Bible say anything at all they are referring to this kind of thing.

Can't you see that you are doing exactly the same thing in the other direction?

There are plenty of places in the bible that back up the view of works alone too.

Everybody just seems to pick bits that agree with the way they see it to be and just ignore the rest.
I came up with a number of articles (from both sides of the argument) that all shared one theme.
That theme is that the bible is God's word and is therefore inerrant and infallible so no matter what the authors appear to be saying, they must actually be agreeing with each other. We just have to figure out how.

I find the whole thing laughable


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 10:20 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 1:54 PM PurpleYouko has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3122
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 278 of 280 (327473)
06-29-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by iano
06-29-2006 10:20 AM


Re: A verse out of water
Well, that is CARM's arguement.

Of course, they are starting with a certain viewpoint.

If I look at Jame's writing alone, I do not get the message that Carm says it says.

It just goes to show that CARM's basic premise that the bible does not contradict itself is wrong.

The Gospel of James has a much more Jewish attitude towards faith and work the Romans. That , actually, gives credulance to the theory that Paul was NOT actually a pharasee.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 10:20 AM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 279 of 280 (327506)
06-29-2006 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by PurpleYouko
06-29-2006 11:18 AM


Re: A verse out of water
oops wrong thread - deleted

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-29-2006 11:18 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 280 of 280 (327507)
06-29-2006 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by iano
06-29-2006 1:54 PM


Re: A verse out of water
oops wrong thread - deleted

That's alright. i managed to read it before you deleted it and was about to point that out to you. ;)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 1:54 PM iano has not yet responded

  
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