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Author Topic:   Does Creationisim preclude faith?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 44 (55667)
09-16-2003 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by kevstersmith
09-15-2003 11:09 PM


Indeed, if I had not seen and experienced what I have over the last 12 years I wouldn't believe in God either.
See, the point of science is to take personal experience out of the picture. That's the essence of "objectivity" and "repeatability".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by kevstersmith, posted 09-15-2003 11:09 PM kevstersmith has replied

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 Message 12 by kevstersmith, posted 09-16-2003 3:28 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 44 (55806)
09-16-2003 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by kevstersmith
09-16-2003 3:28 PM


Okay, how else am I to objectively reconcile the repeated changes I've seen in my own life and that of countless others in my church and elsewhere that compliment what I see in the bible.
With statistics and basic sociology. It's pretty simple, really - the idea is to keep accurate records and interpret them in such a way as your own personal experience doesn't enter into it. After all I can't reproduce your personal experience. I can reproduce your statistics, if I know your methodology.
I know some are inclined to dismiss personal testimonies by saying "well, I know of people that left Christianity and are now much happier." But this does nothing offer an objective explanation for the radical personal testimonies some churches are littered with.
Sure it does. It suggests that different people are happiest in different communities. That, in fact, they may not feel part of a community at all in the wrong community, and that discovering the community that's right for them has a profound effect on their behavior and outlook on the world. No need for untestable divine entities with that explanation, either. And it explains all the data, not just the experience of believers or atheists. It explains them both.

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 Message 12 by kevstersmith, posted 09-16-2003 3:28 PM kevstersmith has replied

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 Message 14 by kevstersmith, posted 09-17-2003 12:57 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 44 (55996)
09-17-2003 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by kevstersmith
09-17-2003 12:57 AM


Even if I exclude my own personal experience I'm not so sure I could reconcile what I see in my Christian friends without suspecting there may be something to this supernatural God they keep talking about.
Well, jeez, if that's all it takes to convince you, then surely you must also suspect that there's something to this Buddha they keep talking about, and something to this Allah they keep talking about, and something to this Vishnu they keep talking about, and - paradoxically - something to this atheism they keep talking about.
Now, I don't know that you're a monotheist, but as that's usually considered a large part of Christianity - there's that Commandment, and all - you either have some remarkably pluralistic views for a Christian, some extra criteria for determining which gods are real which you haven't talked about, or the third alternative - a double standard for the Christian god above those of other cultures. And that's hardly fair, is it?

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 Message 14 by kevstersmith, posted 09-17-2003 12:57 AM kevstersmith has replied

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 Message 33 by kevstersmith, posted 09-19-2003 3:18 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 44 (56178)
09-17-2003 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Shimbabwe
09-17-2003 7:23 PM


Of course, Ned, you understand that Creationism, in its broadest sense, is a basic tenent of Christianity.
I think that you're taking a view of Creationism too broad to have meaning. Creationism, as creationists usually define it, isn't just the idea that there's a Creator god, because that idea isn't contradictory to evolution.
Creationism is the specific belief that God created (at least) life on Earth via a process different than the accepted evolutionary view.
What you were talking about - creationism in the "broadest sense" - is what most people call "evolutionary theism."

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 Message 21 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-17-2003 7:23 PM Shimbabwe has replied

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 Message 27 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-18-2003 1:22 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 44 (56309)
09-18-2003 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Shimbabwe
09-18-2003 1:22 PM


I would agree that most may call it "evolutionary theism." However, I think that "progressive creationism" more aptly dscribes the position I am taking.
Sounds like six of one, half a dozen of the other, to me. If that's what you want to call your position, that's fine... but you may wish to elucidate the difference between your position and evolutionary theism, as I don't see it, yet. And if you refer to yourself as a "creationist" you're going to have a lot of people very puzzled until you explain how your position isn't exactly opposed to evolution.
Honestly I don't see why anyone would call themselves a "creationist" if they didn't want to lump themselves in with Hovind, Baugh, and all those guys.

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 Message 27 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-18-2003 1:22 PM Shimbabwe has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 31 of 44 (56408)
09-19-2003 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by kevstersmith
09-19-2003 12:34 AM


Are there any Atheists making claims about Atheism that weren't introduced to the concept of Atheism by other Atheists?
The first atheist, for one, I should imagine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by kevstersmith, posted 09-19-2003 12:34 AM kevstersmith has not replied

  
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