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Author Topic:   Does Creationisim preclude faith?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 15 of 44 (55940)
09-17-2003 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by kevstersmith
09-17-2003 12:57 AM


kevstersmith responds to crashfrog:
quote:
Any thoughts on the sociological or psychological take on the fact not only do I have a low self-esteem, but in and of myself I consider myself fallen and depraved, yet I seem to enjoy and thrive in life anyway?
You are living in a community that fosters this attitude within you. When everybody around you tells a person the same thing, he'll come to believe it.
quote:
How is this rationalized?
Essentially, it's peer pressure. You believe it because all of the people around you tell you to.
quote:
To me it is clearly evidence that the unseen Christian God is real.
Oh really? Do you seriously expect us to believe that if you had been born in, say, Syria you'd be such a fervent Christian? Or would you be certain that it was Allah who was real?
Why is it you never hear of people making claims about Jesus Christ who have never been introduced to the concept of Jesus Christ by somebody else?
quote:
Even if I exclude my own personal experience I'm not so sure I could reconcile what I see in my Christian friends without suspecting there may be something to this supernatural God they keep talking about.
But that's where the sociology comes in. You see the same effects in those who don't share your Christianity. So if they have the same results though they have a different theology, how can there honestly be a claim that it is god that is doing it and not some sort of social action?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by kevstersmith, posted 09-17-2003 12:57 AM kevstersmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by kevstersmith, posted 09-19-2003 12:34 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 35 of 44 (56626)
09-20-2003 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by kevstersmith
09-19-2003 12:34 AM


kevstersmith responds to me:
quote:
While I would agree that utlimately it is my faith and your lack of it
Who said I was an atheist?
Do not confuse my lack of faith in your god with a lack of faith in all gods.
quote:
quote:
Essentially, it's peer pressure. You believe it because all of the people around you tell you to.
I think this is partly true in that I do associate with a community that fosters this, although I've not always lived within the Christian community.
Really? Where did you live where the majority of people around you were not Christians?
quote:
but considering what a long, twisted, and painful road was involved in getting to the point where I valued scripture more than the praise of my fellow Christian's
You're missing the point. Your fellow Christians are still feeding you the praise of following scripture. They may disagree with your interpretation of it, but you aren't saying that the scripture is worthless in and of itself.
In other words, they still agree with the general path you are on, even though they disagree with how you are treading it.
quote:
That Christianity spreads through word of mouth certainly doesn't contradict scripture as Christian's are exhorted to share their faith for that very purpose.
Nobody is saying that.
Instead, we're pointing out that the word-of-mouth spread of Christianity is not indicative of the veracity of the claims of Christianity. In fact, it would seem to be a bit of a claim against...nobody seems to spout Christianity who wasn't taught it by other Christians.
quote:
Are there any Atheists making claims about Atheism that weren't introduced to the concept of Atheism by other Atheists?
Most of them, actually. The vast majority of atheists were once theists and came to atheism because they were unsatisfied with their religion.
Religion is something that usually is taught and only rarely comes from within. Atheism is something that usually comes from within and is rarely something that is taught.
quote:
A friend I've been mentoring in the Christian faith was, in his words, liberated from 40 years of homesexuality when he prayed to receive Christ two year's ago.
I highly doubt that. He'd be the very first one.
Simple question: Does he still find other men sexually attractive?
If so, then he hasn't been liberated at all. Instead, he's sublimated it.
quote:
The thought of engaging in that behavior suddenly began to disgust him.
That's not the same thing. A person can easily be disgusted by his own behaviour and yet still desire to engage in it.
quote:
To my knowledge, other faiths offer nothing more than repression of such feelings rather than the internal elimination and transformation my friend experienced.
You need to do more research.
And I dispute the claim that your friend was transformed from anything. He merely sublimated his feelings in favor of his religion.
Again, the question is a simple one: Does he feel any sexual attraction to people of the same sex? He needs to be honest. That he would be disgusted to act out on them is different from recognizing that he has them.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by kevstersmith, posted 09-19-2003 12:34 AM kevstersmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by kevstersmith, posted 09-21-2003 12:59 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 38 of 44 (56752)
09-21-2003 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by kevstersmith
09-21-2003 12:59 AM


kevstersmith responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Really? Where did you live where the majority of people around you were not Christians?
In the United States.
Then you're surrounded by Christians. That you don't consider them very good Christians is irrelevant. You are surrounded by an overtone of Christian theology everywhere you go in the US.
quote:
The "only a few" part is not indicative of the majority you're asserting.
Irrelevant. There's a gigantic cross on top of Mt. Soledad here in San Diego. Don't you think that has an effect? Why are there so many events tied around Christmas and Easter? Why did "under god" get inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance? Why do our coins say, "in god we trust"? Why do Christian televangelists manage to make the national airwaves but no other religion manages to get such a toe hold?
Again, that you don't find these people to be very good Christians is irrelevant. They're there. They're promoting the same general concept that you are. It isn't like they're saying you should be a Buddhist. Their is a constant air of Christianity in the United States.
quote:
Contrary to popular belief authentic Christians make up a pretty small albeit unknown percentage of the people in the US.
Contrary to your belief, the only thing required to be an "authentic" Christian is pretty much acknowledgement of being Christian.
You are engaging in the logical fallacy of "no true Scotsman."
quote:
quote:
You're missing the point. Your fellow Christians are still feeding you the praise of following scripture. They may disagree with your interpretation of it, but you aren't saying that the scripture is worthless in and of itself.
In other words, they still agree with the general path you are on, even though they disagree with how you are treading it.
I disagree,
Irrelevant.
Do you deny that there are people out there quoting the Bible? You can go to New York and hear them on the street corners. One used to show up at San Diego State and I even debated with him. They come and knock on your door. Their commercials receive national air time. They have their own nationally broadcast television networks. You may not agree with their interpretation, but the steady call of "Christ" is everywhere in this country. It is nearly impossible to escape.
quote:
It is an internal thing independant of outside sources.
Again, would you be saying that Christianity is an "internal thing" if you were born and raised in Syria? Or would you be saying the exact same thing about Islam? And with the exact same reasons?
The reason you are a Christian is because you were raised in an environment in which you were surrounded by Christians. Certainly your personal brand of Christianity is something you developed on your own. You certainly came up with your own internal method of being a Christian.
But you would have no concept of Jesus Christ, no understanding of the Bible, without other Christians there to get you started and provide you with that Bible in the first place.
quote:
In John 3 Jesus talks of being born of the spirit.
So? If you didn't know about John 3 in the first place, you wouldn't be quoting it. Instead, you would be using the phrasings of the religion you were indoctrinated in. You'd use its wordings to talk about being called. You'd have the exact same fervor but with a different target in mind.
You're only Christian because you were told to be by the people around you.
quote:
Now, keep in mind, I'm not expecting you to believe this as I think it is impossible to reconcile or accept what I'm saying without God himself choosing you to be a part of his family.
What makes you think god hasn't talked to me and told me what to do? The arrogance you display is amazing. Have you considered the possibility that god does exist, but not in the way you think? What makes you think you have the lock on how god behaves?
How am I supposed to determine between two equally fervent believers who contradict each other with the same arguments?
quote:
To this point it doesn't appear that he's done that.
Ah, the lack of respect. Because I don't believe in your god, then I don't believe in any god.
quote:
quote:
Instead, we're pointing out that the word-of-mouth spread of Christianity is not indicative of the veracity of the claims of Christianity. In fact, it would seem to be a bit of a claim against...nobody seems to spout Christianity who wasn't taught it by other Christians.
I'll concede your point that, since other faiths and or belief systems proliferate it is pointless to use the spread of Christianity as evidence for the veracity of Christianity.
Thank you. Do you have something else to provide, then? The fact that there are a bunch of devout Christians tells us nothing about the veracity of Christianity. Just because 2 billion people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing.
quote:
That Christianity doesn't generally to spread without word of mouth may lead some to question its validity is just fine. Christianity isn't supposed to appear valid to those that aren't Christians:
But that logic applies to every other religion out there. Why do you maintain the double standard that you're right and everybody else is wrong when they have the same argument to apply to you?
quote:
I know, how convenient?
Precisely.
If you know the argument doesn't hold water, why do you present it?
quote:
quote:
Most of them, actually. The vast majority of atheists were once theists and came to atheism because they were unsatisfied with their religion.
Religion is something that usually is taught and only rarely comes from within. Atheism is something that usually comes from within and is rarely something that is taught.
I like Crashfrog's answer better: The first one presumably.
Yes, but it goes further. If you look at actual atheists, you find that the vast majority of them came to atheism on their own, not through somebody telling them to be an atheist. Atheists generally live in a culture that is drenched in theistic philosophy. The pressure to conform is high and yet they continue to come to the conclusion that there is no god. Even in a (supposedly) religiously free country like the United States, the attitude is primarily that we don't care what god you do believe in so long as you actually believe in god.
Witness the continual debate over the separation of church and state. There are people who actually think that if you simply keep your mouth shut on the topic, that is an active denial of god. They cannot understand that there is a difference between saying that god doesn't exist and not saying anything about the existence of god. Why does our money have "in god we trust" on it? Because the aftermath of WWII required it and there is no way to get rid of it without being called an atheist as if recognizing that there are atheists who don't trust god and thus we shouldn't be directly antagonistic toward them is a bad thing. Notice that this reaction is simply over making the money absolutely silent on the issue. It isn't an attempt to get the money to say that there is no god...it's just to get it to be silent on the subject.
quote:
From a biblical prespective I don't think there is any difference between a theist that calls themself a Christian, that hasn't been born of the spirit, and an Atheist.
Irrelevant.
Who are you to say who is or is not a Christian? If someone claims to be a Christian, then unless we happen to catch him in the Buddhist temple for all of his religious services or some such, then he's a Christian whether you like it or not.
You are not the judge of a person's soul.
quote:
quote:
I highly doubt that. He'd be the very first one.
Simple question: Does he still find other men sexually attractive?
If so, then he hasn't been liberated at all. Instead, he's sublimated it.
You need to do more research.
I've done plenty.
Every single study of "ex-gays" finds that it doesn't work. The feelings of attraction never go away. It is quite possible to get a person to engage in heterosexual behaviour, even to do so exclusively, but that is not the same thing as "changing" his sexual orientation.
quote:
He mentioned to me the other day he was watching a show on TBN where a guy was giving the same testimony. If there are two, could there be three?
There isn't even one.
Oh, there are lots of people who claim to have changed, but the question to them is the same one: Do you still find people of the same sex sexually attractive?
quote:
On numerous occasions he's remarked about being in a situation where he asked himself, "geez, shouldn't I be attracted to this guy?" Weird huh?
Not at all. He's sublimated his desires.
quote:
He actually talks about finding woman attractive which he asserts never happened prior to the spiritual birth.
Irrelevant. Again, getting someone to engage in sexual behaviour is one thing. Getting them to get rid of attraction is another.
quote:
Incidentally, there is a group called Exodus International which is a Christian organization of people that used to be gay.
Yes, I know.
You do know that the two male founders of Exodus fell in love with each other, yes? That they quit the organization and admitted that it was all just a hopeless attempt to change what cannot be changed? That they were so blinded by the social stigma attached to homosexuality that they tried what could not be done? That they only found true happiness when they simply admitted who they were in an honest manner?
quote:
Now, if my understanding is correct, some in the group have been liberated in the sense that my friend has, while others still struggle with temptation.
Nope. Exodus has been studied long and hard and they have no success rate.
In fact, Exodus has a horrible time keeping its poster boys on the straight and narrow. Remember John Paulk? He made the cover of Newsweek. And within a few months, he was back at the gay bars, hitting on guys.
And what about Michael Johnston? The "ex-gay" who then went around deliberately trying to infect other gay men with HIV.
There's a reason that the American Psychological Association stated:
...scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works and that it can do more harm than good.
(from American Psychological Association- Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality)
And why do you think it is that Exodus doesn't track its members and keeps no statistics on how many have gone through the program?
quote:
quote:
You need to do more research.
Please elaborate. Are you suggesting that other faiths or belief systems can offer something more than sublimation, but Christianity can't?
I'm saying that there is not a single success story in all of the "ex-gay" movement.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by kevstersmith, posted 09-21-2003 12:59 AM kevstersmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by kevstersmith, posted 09-21-2003 6:32 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 40 of 44 (57118)
09-23-2003 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by kevstersmith
09-21-2003 6:32 PM


kevstersmith responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Then you're surrounded by Christians. That you don't consider them very good Christians is irrelevant. You are surrounded by an overtone of Christian theology everywhere you go in the US.
Then your interpretation of what a Christian is does not match what the bible indicates a Christian is. If you think it does, prove it.
I already did. They identify as Christian.
That's all that is needed.
quote:
quote:
Irrelevant. There's a gigantic cross on top of Mt. Soledad here in San Diego. Don't you think that has an effect? Why are there so many events tied around Christmas and Easter? Why did "under god" get inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance? Why do our coins say, "in god we trust"? Why do Christian televangelists manage to make the national airwaves but no other religion manages to get such a toe hold?
Such things have an effect on the elect.
It's more than that. They have an effect on everyone. How does one go to Mt. Soledad without seeing the cross?
quote:
Its certainly plausible that the effect on the unelect may not be all that fruitful.
Irrelevant. Whether or not you like the cross is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not you are aware of it.
The question put to you is how you are so certain that the reason you are a Christian isn't because you are surrounded by Christians. If you were born and raised in Syria, wouldn't you be just as likely to be an ardent Muslim? Why do you think that is?
quote:
quote:
Contrary to your belief, the only thing required to be an "authentic" Christian is pretty much acknowledgement of being Christian.
You are engaging in the logical fallacy of "no true Scotsman."
Again, if you can establish your belief in what a Christian is from
a scriptural standpoint then do so.
I did and you just proved my point: "No true Scotsman."
quote:
If you don't think you need to, understand that I don't need you to accept the scriptural arguments that I've shown illustrating that most aren't Christian's.
No, you're the one making the claim. Therefore, it is your burden to show it.
By the way, these people whom you claim not to be Christian are often making the same claim about you. And with the same justifications that you direct against them. If I recall correctly, you have admitted that you have taken flak for your positions with regard toward your theology.
So why should we take your claims over those of others?
quote:
quote:
Do you deny that there are people out there quoting the Bible? You can go to New York and hear them on the street corners. One used to show up at San Diego State and I even debated with him. They come and knock on your door. Their commercials receive national air time. They have their own nationally broadcast television networks. You may not agree with their interpretation, but the steady call of "Christ" is everywhere in this country. It is nearly impossible to escape.
So, such things aren't supposed to bring the unelect to Christ. Only the elect.
Irrelevant.
The question is not whether or not they believe. The question is whether or not they are aware.
One cannot believe what one is unaware of. Again, the point being made is that Christians don't become Christian without somebody telling them about it. Atheists, on the other hand, usually become atheists all on their own with nobody telling them about it.
quote:
quote:
Again, would you be saying that Christianity is an "internal thing" if you were born and raised in Syria? Or would you be saying the exact same thing about Islam? And with the exact same reasons?
This is superfluous.
It's the entire point of the discussion:
Is not the fact that you are a Christian a direct result of the fact that you were taught to be one by other Christians? That if you had been born and raised around Muslims, you would be a Muslim? That if you had been born and raised around Buddhists, you'd be a Buddhist?
quote:
If I were born in Syria it would ultimately depend on whether I was one of the elect. If I wasn't, then probably not.
Non sequitur. This sentence no verb.
If you were born in Syria, I daresay that you'd think you were one of "the elect" in your devotion to Islam. If you were born in India, you'd be saying the same thing about Hinduism. Similarly for those areas where the population is primarily Buddhist or Jewish or whatever.
quote:
quote:
The reason you are a Christian is because you were raised in an environment in which you were surrounded by Christians. Certainly your personal brand of Christianity is something you developed on your own. You certainly came up with your own internal method of being a Christian.
Negative. I'm a Christian because I was chosen, albeit certainly not on merit.
But you claim to be chosen because your theology tells you that only the chosen have your theology.
What a perfectly circular argument you have there.
quote:
That many claim to be Christian's certainly is a product of all the exposure concerning the Christian faith,
And you're not one of them?
quote:
but as I've established scripturally (that you have yet to counter)this doesn't make them Christian's.
But they say the same thing about you. Why should we take your word over theirs?
quote:
quote:
What makes you think god hasn't talked to me and told me what to do? The arrogance you display is amazing. Have you considered the possibility that god does exist, but not in the way you think? What makes you think you have the lock on how god behaves?
Considering your statement that you don't believe in my God, who I consider to be The God, I think it reasonable to infer that whatever God's that have spoke to you aren't of the same superior realm that mine is.
But that's just the point, isn't it? I have the identical argument to make to you.
So which one of us gets to be the winner? How does any outside observer decide which of us is the real deal?
quote:
I understand this comes off as snooty, but understand I don't think my being a Christian is to my credit.
Neither do I. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that you happened to have been born in a community of other Christians.
quote:
Furthermore, the "my God is bigger than god's that appear to contradict him argument" is a reasonable deduction from scripture.
Incorrect. It is illogical. The followers of those gods that contradict yours make the exact same argument to you. So if you don't buy it when it's applied to you, why on earth should we accept it when you make it?
quote:
If you can prove otherwise then do so.
I already have. Your argument is circular. Your god is the god you follow because you say so and you say so because you follow the god you follow.
quote:
Otherwise I think your thinking this view to be arrogant is akin to being shooting the messenger.
But you're the only one here. You're the one making the argument. You refuse to give the respect to others that you demand they give unto you. What is that if not arrogance?
Which is fine if that's what you want to do.
quote:
quote:
So? If you didn't know about John 3 in the first place, you wouldn't be quoting it. Instead, you would be using the phrasings of the religion you were indoctrinated in. You'd use its wordings to talk about being called. You'd have the exact same fervor but with a different target in mind.
That not all authentic Christian's understand the dynamics behind their faith is understandable, but it doesn't make the dynamics any less valid. For most of Christian life I didn't understand this either.
Non sequitur. This sentence no verb.
Would you care to respond to the point I actually made? If you didn't know about John 3 in the first place, you wouldn't be quoting it.
quote:
That I could easily have been indoctrinated elsewhere is something I am aware of. There but for the grace of God...
So why don't you accept that fact and understand that your "calling" is at least partly due to the fact that you're surrounded by Christians. They taught you that you're supposed to feel such a "calling."
quote:
quote:
Ah, the lack of respect. Because I don't believe in your god, then I don't believe in any god.
First, I didn't say you didn't believe in any God.
Did the words "You don't believe in any god" come out of you? No. But don't be disingenuous. You said the reason I don't share your faith is because your god hasn't made it happen yet. The assumption is that yours is the only god that exists and that the only place for me in your cosmology is to either believe in your god or nothing. No possibility that some god other than yours might have called to me.
quote:
Your ignoring my self correction of this in the last reply. I'm saying, from a scriptural perspective that you believe in or know the God of the bible as I understand Him to be.
But you're assuming that your god is the only god that exists. You directly stated that I haven't heard the call of god.
But what if I have? What if your god doesn't exist?
quote:
Furthermore, no disrespect is intended. I understand that only God knows for sure who is and isn't saved. I'm content to wait out the verdict.
Irrelevant.
What if your god doesn't exist? Have you considered the possibility that god does exist but not in the way you think?
quote:
quote:
The fact that there are a bunch of devout Christians tells us nothing about the veracity of Christianity. Just because 2 billion people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing.
Your assertion that 2 billion people are Christian contradicts the verses that I gave you.
Irrelevant. Your verses do not make a Christian. The people who call themselves Christian do. There are about 2 billion of them on the planet, about half of them claiming to be Catholic. Who are you to tell all of them that they're wrong? Now do you see my point about arrogance?
quote:
Fortunately, authentic Christian's don't need your approval.
Did you ever stop to think that this applies just as much to you as it does to the people you are referencing? They don't need your approval to be "authentic" Christians.
You're engaging in the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
quote:
In fact, they should expect you to consider what their doing to be dumb.
And since you're claiming they're not "authentic," they'll consider what you're doing to be dumb, too.
Why should anybody believe your claim that you have the definitive test on what it means to be a Christian? Who are you to tell all these other people that they're wrong?
quote:
quote:
How am I supposed to determine between two equally fervent believers who contradict each other with the same arguments?
What makes you think you're supposed to be able determine which argument is valid when they involve the spiritual discernment of Christianity.
Do you not hear yourself? What makes you think YOU able to determine who the "authentic" Christian is?
"No true Scotsman" again.
quote:
quote:
Why do you maintain the double standard that you're right and everybody else is wrong when they have the same argument to apply to you?
Because I've been born of the spirit.
So are they.
Who are you to tell them that they're not? They make the same argument about you. Which one do I believe?
quote:
The double standard is hardly unique to Christianity.
Irrelevant. The fact that other religions also engage in this double standard doesn't change the fact that it is a double standard.
quote:
That it may not seem fair is fine, I'm just trying to be scripturally accurate. It is what it is.
But I have a bunch of other Christians who say you're not. And they have the exact same arguments that you have.
Why should we take your word over theirs?
quote:
quote:
Who are you to say who is or is not a Christian? If someone claims to be a Christian, then unless we happen to catch him in the Buddhist temple for all of his religious services or some such, then he's a Christian whether you like it or not.
You are not the judge of a person's soul.
Its not supposed to appear relevant to those that haven't been born of the Christian Spirit.
What makes you think I haven't? Just because I disgree with you?
You are not the judge of a person's soul.
quote:
I'm simply proclaiming what I see in the bible, which God has given me the authority to do.
So is everybody else.
Since they're using the exact same arguments as you, what makes your argument more valid?
quote:
I'm not acting as judge,
Excuse me? You say that god has given you the authority and you think you're not judging?
quote:
just offering a biblical explanation for the fact that not all that claim to be Christian's are Christians no matter how bad you want them to be.
Have you considered the possibility that you are one of those who claim to be a Christian and yet you are not no matter how bad you want to be?
quote:
Its not a product of me not liking it.
Oh, it most certainly is. I submit that you wouldn't be saying what you were saying if you didn't think you were called by god.
quote:
I agree that only God knows for sure,
Then what on earth are you doing saying that god has given you authority about anything?
quote:
I'm content to wait the verdict.
Is that Pascal's Wager I smell?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by kevstersmith, posted 09-21-2003 6:32 PM kevstersmith has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 44 of 44 (57447)
09-24-2003 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by DC85
09-23-2003 11:07 PM


DC85 writes:
quote:
I do not have faith in anything where as an athiest Believes there isn't a god or gods.
Um, if you ask the atheists, they will generally say that they don't have faith in anything either.
Yes, there is "strong" atheism which says, "I believe there is no god," but most atheists go for what is sometimes called "weak" atheism which says, "I have no belief in god."
Yes, there is a difference. Belief in not is not the same as no belief.
Do you "believe" there is no Santa Claus or do you not have a belief in Santa Claus?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by DC85, posted 09-23-2003 11:07 PM DC85 has not replied

  
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