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Author Topic:   Does Creationisim preclude faith?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 44 (55996)
09-17-2003 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by kevstersmith
09-17-2003 12:57 AM


Even if I exclude my own personal experience I'm not so sure I could reconcile what I see in my Christian friends without suspecting there may be something to this supernatural God they keep talking about.
Well, jeez, if that's all it takes to convince you, then surely you must also suspect that there's something to this Buddha they keep talking about, and something to this Allah they keep talking about, and something to this Vishnu they keep talking about, and - paradoxically - something to this atheism they keep talking about.
Now, I don't know that you're a monotheist, but as that's usually considered a large part of Christianity - there's that Commandment, and all - you either have some remarkably pluralistic views for a Christian, some extra criteria for determining which gods are real which you haven't talked about, or the third alternative - a double standard for the Christian god above those of other cultures. And that's hardly fair, is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by kevstersmith, posted 09-17-2003 12:57 AM kevstersmith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Shimbabwe
Member (Idle past 3870 days)
Posts: 47
From: Murfreesboro, TN USA
Joined: 09-11-2003


Message 17 of 44 (56057)
09-17-2003 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
09-13-2003 3:27 PM


quote:
If it was ever proven to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Creationisim is bunk. Would that be a serious blow to your religion?
Hello Yaro,
Creationism and religion, specifically Christianity, though not synonomous, are very closely related. From a Christian viewpoint, I will say, "Yes, of course, my religion would be threatened, if not completely demolished." However, I can not imagine circumstances in which this becomes a possibility. I would "assume" most proponents of other religions, such as Darwinism and Goldschmidtism, would be equally devestated.

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 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 09-13-2003 3:27 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by zephyr, posted 09-17-2003 3:54 PM Shimbabwe has replied
 Message 20 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2003 6:19 PM Shimbabwe has replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 18 of 44 (56074)
09-17-2003 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Shimbabwe
09-17-2003 2:39 PM


quote:
I would "assume" most proponents of other religions, such as Darwinism and Goldschmidtism, would be equally devestated.
Ahh, the old "Darwinism = religion" idea. It's a serious cheap shot (not to mention being totally cliche in YEC circles) and I don't think it's justified. Where are the moral imperatives stemming from scientific evidence of descent with modification? Where is the social engineering that is required by those who are termed "believers" in the principle of natural selection? Note that any references to eugenics or social Darwinism are not applicable here, as they are not integral to biological evolution and are not commonly held views, even to those who accept biological evolution. Oh, and we've got threads going on those subjects already, where those attempting to produce those links are being soundly thrashed (whether they acknowledge it or not).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-17-2003 2:39 PM Shimbabwe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-17-2003 6:02 PM zephyr has replied

  
Shimbabwe
Member (Idle past 3870 days)
Posts: 47
From: Murfreesboro, TN USA
Joined: 09-11-2003


Message 19 of 44 (56092)
09-17-2003 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by zephyr
09-17-2003 3:54 PM


quote:
Ahh, the old "Darwinism = religion" idea. It's a serious cheap shot
Yes it was; my poor attempt at humor.
quote:
(not to mention being totally cliche in YEC circles)
Possibly true, I wouldn't know.
quote:
and I don't think it's justified.
No offense intended, my friend. I knew it would ruffle some feathers. My apologies.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by zephyr, posted 09-17-2003 3:54 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 20 of 44 (56095)
09-17-2003 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Shimbabwe
09-17-2003 2:39 PM


"Yes, of course, my religion would be threatened, if not completely demolished."
How very odd! Since the majority of Christians don't have any such problem. In addition a goodly percentage of mainstream scientitists are religious. It is hard for me to see the connection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-17-2003 2:39 PM Shimbabwe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-17-2003 7:23 PM NosyNed has replied

  
Shimbabwe
Member (Idle past 3870 days)
Posts: 47
From: Murfreesboro, TN USA
Joined: 09-11-2003


Message 21 of 44 (56117)
09-17-2003 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by NosyNed
09-17-2003 6:19 PM


quote:
How very odd! Since the majority of Christians don't have any such problem. In addition a goodly percentage of mainstream scientitists are religious.
Hello Ned,
I never asserted that Christianity/religion precludes science. I am only stating that a Creator is necessary for Christianity, in it's historical, Biblical sense, to exist. I certainly don't think that science and Christianity are mutually exclusive.
quote:
It is hard for me to see the connection.
Of course, Ned, you understand that Creationism, in its broadest sense, is a basic tenent of Christianity.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2003 6:19 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Rei, posted 09-17-2003 9:10 PM Shimbabwe has not replied
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2003 10:53 PM Shimbabwe has replied
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 09-17-2003 10:54 PM Shimbabwe has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 22 of 44 (56141)
09-17-2003 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Shimbabwe
09-17-2003 7:23 PM


Fire breathing crocodiles
Yes, but fire breathing crocodiles are also necessary for a literalist interpretation of the bible.
Jesus spoke in parable to teach people about things they weren't ready to learn. Why wouldn't God?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 23 of 44 (56176)
09-17-2003 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Shimbabwe
09-17-2003 6:02 PM


quote:
Yes it was; my poor attempt at humor.
Heh... actually, if it was humor then consider it successful
quote:
Possibly true, I wouldn't know.
Ahhh... yeah. Maybe you haven't read all those pages. Yeah, there are a lot of people that find comfort in bashing evolution as a religious belief. I've been musing upon the problems with that for a while and you happened to get me right when some of my thoughts coalesced. It's more about timing than anything else.
quote:
No offense intended, my friend. I knew it would ruffle some feathers. My apologies.
No offense taken. I had fun writing all that & was glad to have the chance, but I'm not emotionally invested in the validity of the theory. There ya go. That's the difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-17-2003 6:02 PM Shimbabwe has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 24 of 44 (56177)
09-17-2003 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Shimbabwe
09-17-2003 7:23 PM


Of course, Ned, you understand that Creationism, in its broadest sense, is a basic tenent of Christianity.
You lost the context of this discussion and should not be capitalizing "Creationism". There is nowhere here where that means anything other than a literal meaning of Genesis and the "creation" of living forms. It is NOT anywhere here used to refer to the simple belief that there is a sentient "creator" that acts through the natural laws we see and may be taken as "kicking off" the big bang or setting up conditions in which it would occur.
This second and, here, NEW use of the word "creationism" is, of course, a tenant of Christianity. But Creationism, as it has been used all along here is clearly NOT a tenant of Christianity.
It is careless or even disingenuous of you to mix the meanings, don't you think?
Now with that clarified, why should there be a problem?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-17-2003 7:23 PM Shimbabwe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-18-2003 1:02 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 44 (56178)
09-17-2003 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Shimbabwe
09-17-2003 7:23 PM


Of course, Ned, you understand that Creationism, in its broadest sense, is a basic tenent of Christianity.
I think that you're taking a view of Creationism too broad to have meaning. Creationism, as creationists usually define it, isn't just the idea that there's a Creator god, because that idea isn't contradictory to evolution.
Creationism is the specific belief that God created (at least) life on Earth via a process different than the accepted evolutionary view.
What you were talking about - creationism in the "broadest sense" - is what most people call "evolutionary theism."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-17-2003 7:23 PM Shimbabwe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-18-2003 1:22 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Shimbabwe
Member (Idle past 3870 days)
Posts: 47
From: Murfreesboro, TN USA
Joined: 09-11-2003


Message 26 of 44 (56285)
09-18-2003 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NosyNed
09-17-2003 10:53 PM


quote:
This second and, here, NEW use of the word "creationism" is, of course, a tenant of Christianity. But Creationism, as it has been used all along here is clearly NOT a tenant of Christianity.
Fair enough.

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 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2003 10:53 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Shimbabwe
Member (Idle past 3870 days)
Posts: 47
From: Murfreesboro, TN USA
Joined: 09-11-2003


Message 27 of 44 (56291)
09-18-2003 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
09-17-2003 10:54 PM


quote:
I think that you're taking a view of Creationism too broad to have meaning.
Perhaps.
quote:
Creationism, as creationists usually define it, isn't just the idea that there's a Creator god, because that idea isn't contradictory to evolution.
This depends on whether we are discussing progressive creationism or theistic evolution. The latter of which can not be easily reconciled with the biblical account of creation.
quote:
Creationism is the specific belief that God created (at least) life on Earth via a process different than the accepted evolutionary view.
So do you consider all opponents to "accepted evolutionary view" creationists? I want to make sure we are all on the same page. Please clarify your position on this.
quote:
What you were talking about - creationism in the "broadest sense" - is what most people call "evolutionary theism."
I would agree that most may call it "evolutionary theism." However, I think that "progressive creationism" more aptly dscribes the position I am taking.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 09-17-2003 10:54 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NosyNed, posted 09-18-2003 2:30 PM Shimbabwe has replied
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 28 of 44 (56300)
09-18-2003 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Shimbabwe
09-18-2003 1:22 PM


So do you consider all opponents to "accepted evolutionary view" creationists? I want to make sure we are all on the same page. Please clarify your position on this.
No I don't. But the majority of those who are real opponents are I think.
You could clarify your position yourself. What is progressive creationism, if that is the term you used?
It seems there are more different creationist postitions than there are creationists .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-18-2003 1:22 PM Shimbabwe has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 44 (56309)
09-18-2003 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Shimbabwe
09-18-2003 1:22 PM


I would agree that most may call it "evolutionary theism." However, I think that "progressive creationism" more aptly dscribes the position I am taking.
Sounds like six of one, half a dozen of the other, to me. If that's what you want to call your position, that's fine... but you may wish to elucidate the difference between your position and evolutionary theism, as I don't see it, yet. And if you refer to yourself as a "creationist" you're going to have a lot of people very puzzled until you explain how your position isn't exactly opposed to evolution.
Honestly I don't see why anyone would call themselves a "creationist" if they didn't want to lump themselves in with Hovind, Baugh, and all those guys.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Shimbabwe, posted 09-18-2003 1:22 PM Shimbabwe has not replied

  
kevstersmith
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 44 (56401)
09-19-2003 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rrhain
09-17-2003 4:22 AM


Thank you for your thoughtful response Rrhain. While I would agree that utlimately it is my faith and your lack of it that will keep us from coming together on much, I think I can offer some additional insight into some of what you've detailed.
Rrhain writes:
You are living in a community that fosters this attitude within you. When everybody around you tells a person the same thing, he'll come to believe it.
Rrhain writes:
Essentially, it's peer pressure. You believe it because all of the people around you tell you to.
I think this is partly true in that I do associate with a community that fosters this, although I've not always lived within the Christian community. When considering this assertion against some of the details of my testimony I think it becomes inaccurate and or too simplistic.
When I first became a Christian there were a number of internal and external factors that brought me saving faith in Christ. Part of it was seeing some positive things in others that were sharing their faith with me. Another significant part was a feeling inside me that said I needed something greater than myself to make it through life. Certainly it is possible that some have had a greater and more extended exposure than I did and yet ended up rejecting the faith.
Another thing to consider about my faith is that I am clearly in the minority concerning some doctrinal issues within my church. I adhere to them anyway because I think they are scripturally accurate. Winning the praise of my fellow Christian's does very little for me compared to the peace my heart experiences when I stick to that which I discover to be doctrinally sound.
Now, I can appreciate that you might be inclined attribute this to some sort of peer or external pressure as well, but considering what a long, twisted, and painful road was involved in getting to the point where I valued scripture more than the praise of my fellow Christian's, I don't think that to be a sound explanation. My first inclination (for many a year) was to seek the praise of others, but this didn't do much to satisfy what was going on inside me.
Rrhain writes:
Oh really? Do you seriously expect us to believe that if you had been born in, say, Syria you'd be such a fervent Christian? Or would you be certain that it was Allah who was real?
Good point. Now I don't even entirely agree with what I wrote. A more generic statement is probably more appropriate. Namely, as a holder of a particular faith I should say I think this indicates there is something supernatural or spiritual behind what we all believe. Now, from the biblical perspective I hold, I think other faiths and belief systems (including atheism) are inspired by "the god of this age" as Jesus described Satan. Now I understand that this is not unique to Christianity. Muslims certainly hold that their God is bigger and better than my God. Which is fine.
As a side note, I have a nephew that will someday be a missionary in Syria. Therefore, from my perspective, some Syrian's are destined for redemption.
Rrhain writes:
Why is it you never hear of people making claims about Jesus Christ who have never been introduced to the concept of Jesus Christ by somebody else?
The apostle Paul, who penned two thirds of the New Testament, is an example of one in the sense that hearing what Christian's had to say did nothing except make him want to beat the crap out of them for their blasphemy. It was the encounter on the road to Damascus with the risen Christ that made him change his tune.
That Christianity spreads through word of mouth certainly doesn't contradict scripture as Christian's are exhorted to share their faith for that very purpose.
Are there any Atheists making claims about Atheism that weren't introduced to the concept of Atheism by other Atheists?
Rrhain writes:
But that's where the sociology comes in. You see the same effects in those who don't share your Christianity.
I don't know that this is entirely true. A friend I've been mentoring in the Christian faith was, in his words, liberated from 40 years of homesexuality when he prayed to receive Christ two year's ago. As he describes it, after praying to receive Christ he was suddenly liberated from the internal feelings that consumned him for much of his life. The thought of engaging in that behavior suddenly began to disgust him. This, I think, is unique to those that experience the spiritual birth Jesus describes in John 3. To my knowledge, other faiths offer nothing more than repression of such feelings rather than the internal elimination and transformation my friend experienced.
Respectfully
[This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 09-18-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rrhain, posted 09-17-2003 4:22 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by crashfrog, posted 09-19-2003 1:51 AM kevstersmith has not replied
 Message 34 by John, posted 09-19-2003 6:50 PM kevstersmith has not replied
 Message 35 by Rrhain, posted 09-20-2003 12:38 AM kevstersmith has replied

  
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