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Author Topic:   Non-belief and Nihilism
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 62 (167356)
12-12-2004 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by lfen
12-12-2004 4:35 AM


"Ordinarily, it is said that we use the Mind to transmit the Mind, or that we use the Mind to seal the Mind. Actually, however, in transmitting the Mind, there is really no Mind to receive or obtain; and in sealing the Mind, there is really no Mind to seal. If this is the case, then does the Mind exist or does it not exist? Actually, it cannot be said with certainty that the Mind either exists or does not exist, for it is Absolute Reality."
This sounds like a lot of gobbledy-gook to me. Can you explain it plain langauge? How can there be a mind and not be a mind at the same time? Is this "game theory"? To couch a philosophy in paradoxical, contradictory terms doesn't mean that you have overcome
all the difficulties surrounding the idea of the Absolute.
"it's not one side of a dicotomy." I guess you are saying that there is an Absolute and there is not an Absolute, or maybe, all is arbitrary and at the same time not arbitrary. Is this game theory? You play games with words and pretend that you've said something?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 4:35 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 2:09 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 62 (167357)
12-12-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by 1.61803
12-12-2004 1:15 AM


I agree. Hedonism is a perfectly reasonable kind of nihilism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by 1.61803, posted 12-12-2004 1:15 AM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-13-2004 9:43 AM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 62 (167378)
12-12-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
12-12-2004 5:00 AM


Re: Back on Topic
phatboy writes:
Explain to me why there can be no gray area in between? I, for one am an absolute Monotheist. It seems to me that some people are professing Christians, yet they deny Inerrency and somehow have a different idea of God than I do. They still claim Christianity, yet seemingly fail to bow to Christ. Or perhaps they fail to bow to MY idea of Christ.
These differences in details among Christians does not matter in the least as long as the Absolute is part of the belief system. Christians, Jews, Muslims--they all believe in the Absolute unless they are some progressive group who are not really theists at all but just label themselves something to make it sound more respectable.
There can be no in-between between the Absolute and the arbitrary.
We can say that a certain moral rule is "relative," which means that it is personal or conditional or culture-specific or even "species-specific." It doesn't matter, for this discussion, how many people believe something. All that matters is whether or not the rule is true, not true for me and true for you, but objectively true.
With no absolute, if we say, "kindness is better than cruelty," we have uttered an opinion that has no more logical weight than saying "the King can only move one square at a time" or even "I prefer green to blue." There is no grounding for kindness being better than cruelty, unless there is an Absolute standard in which such is the case.
Now in practical terms it's possibly better not to be a nihilist. In practical terms, it's probably more advantageous to be a believer of the dominant religion in your culture. In the US, that would be Christianity. You might be a better person according to our culture's definition of better, to be a Christian or at least to pretend to be one.
Edit spelling PB
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-12-2004 02:23 PM

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Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 19 of 62 (167394)
12-12-2004 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by robinrohan
12-12-2004 11:09 AM


This sounds like a lot of gobbledy-gook to me. Can you explain it plain langauge?
No. It can't be explained. Concepts can't do it.
What can be done from the conceptual side is explore the limits of concepts. You sought a conceptual absolute and when you perceived that was self contradictory you see the only alternative as nihilism another conceptual system. The solution does not lie in the mind created conceptual realm of duality. It's not either or but something else, only its not a thing. The western religious concept of the absolute is reassuringly simple but that simplification runs into contradiction. The way out lies right now in your fundamental consciousness.
Zen uses a very compact language and that was why I used that passage but it wasn't a good choice. What follows is a longer passage from Ken Wilber written in contemporary English.
I became extremely serious about meditation practice when I read the following line from the illustrious Sri Ramana Maharshi: "That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real."
That is a shocking statement, because basically there is nothing-literally nothing-in the deep dreamless state. That was his point. Ultimate reality (or Spirit), Ramana said, cannot be something that pops into consciousness and then pops out. It must be something that is constant, permanent, or, more technically, something that, being timeless, is fully present at every point in time. Therefore, ultimate reality must also be fully present in deep dreamless sleep, and anything that is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not ultimate reality.
This profoundly disturbed me, because I had had several kensho or satori-like experiences (glimpses of One Taste), but they were all confined to the waking state. Moreover, most of the things I cared for existed in the waking state. And yet clearly the waking state is not permanent. It comes and goes every twenty-four hours. And yet, according to the great sages, there is something in us that is always conscious-that is, literally conscious or aware at all times and through all states, waking, dreaming, sleeping. And that ever-present awareness is Spirit in us. That underlying current of constant consciousness (or nondual awareness) is a direct and unbroken ray of pure Spirit itself. It is our connection with the Goddess, our pipeline straight to God.
Thus, if we want to realize our supreme identity with Spirit, we will have to plug ourselves into this current of constant consciousness, and follow it through all changes of state-waking, dreaming, sleeping. This will: 1) strip us of an exclusive identification with any of those states (such as the body, the mind, the ego, or the soul); and 2) allow us to recognize and identify with that which is constant-or timeless-through all of those states, namely, Consciousness as Such, by any other name, timeless Spirit.
http://www.shambhalasun.com/...mnists/Wilber/WilberJan99.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by robinrohan, posted 12-12-2004 11:09 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by robinrohan, posted 12-13-2004 9:26 AM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 20 of 62 (167406)
12-12-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Ben!
12-12-2004 6:33 AM


I feel like I'm spreading my cognitive tracks all over the board these days.
Ben,
You've barely broken 100 posts! Look at the numbers the really frequent posters have racked up! I really appreciate your cognitive tracks and this last link is a goldmine. I'm reading Searles right now but just wanted to thank you for the link. I value your contributions so keep posting, please!
Thank you,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 6:33 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 8:18 PM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 21 of 62 (167462)
12-12-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Ben!
12-12-2004 6:33 AM


Ben,
I gave the Searles talk a first read through. He is a clear speaker and I am excited by the possibility of what appears to be an independent theory of consciousness that has similiarities to Franklin Merrell-Wolffe's consciousness without an object.
I had to return the Damasio's books, but he reports the well documented delay in awareness between the muscles beings activated and the subject reporting they have decided to move. This seems to support the notion of determination rather than free will, at least the free will is not at the disposal of consciousness though it appears it can inhibit an action. So does this point to consciousness as a inhibitory veto mechanism?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 6:33 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 8:15 PM lfen has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1421 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 22 of 62 (167519)
12-12-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by lfen
12-12-2004 6:10 PM


lfen,
I don't know that data--does Damasio reference the source articles for it?
Such a delay is interesting, but can come about for more than one reason:
  1. The NCC (neural correlates of consciousness) are not activated until AFTER the action is taken (what you've suggested)
  2. The report mechanism is simply a slower neural pathway than the movement pathway.
  3. There are two components to all motion--an unconscious and a consciuous component. Consciousness is only involved in the second type; this intial movement is due to unconscious response.
Point (1) is the view that consciousness is epiphenomenal; Searle is against that view. I'm undecided.
As for your proposal, I think you probably could model consciousness as epiphenomenal for motion, and 'in the main path' for inhibition (i.e. Point (2) above). However, I also think you can model them both as epiphenomenal and both as in the "main path" as well.
I personally would choose one of these 'more simple' models without data that explicitly says conscious inhibition works on a time scale faster than conscious excitation. I think the fact that you can often tell people are inhibiting response by their failure to inhibit unconscious responses (e.g. lie detector test, eye movement, twitch) shows that inhibition doesn't necessarily work on unconscious movement.
Haha, I wish for once I could give you a straightforward answer. Well, I hope my response means something to you.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 6:10 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 8:43 PM Ben! has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1421 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 23 of 62 (167520)
12-12-2004 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by lfen
12-12-2004 2:41 PM


lfen,
Listen to Richard Axel's talk. It really was amazing. Searle's was good, but not mind-blowing (I guess because he thinks almost exactly like I do).
Axel's talk was mind-blowing. Some of the methodology was simply astounding. I don't want to spoil it for you... but if you want, I can expound on it for you
Ben
P.S. I think this is my first 100% consciously off-topic post. Yay! I feel like I'm a "true" member now

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 2:41 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 8:46 PM Ben! has replied
 Message 28 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 9:11 PM Ben! has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 24 of 62 (167529)
12-12-2004 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Ben!
12-12-2004 8:15 PM


Ben,
I think he does. I'll should be able to get his books in a few days. I may try to reserve it tonight online and trap it once it's been processed unless someone else reserved it. It's a well known study.
I think the fact that you can often tell people are inhibiting response by their failure to inhibit unconscious responses (e.g. lie detector test, eye movement, twitch) shows that inhibition doesn't necessarily work on unconscious movement.
There is also blind sight, but those are unconscious which means we don't get to be conscious of them. The inhibition I'm talking about is when you know you want to call someone a name and stifle that impulse for example.
Consciousness is a subset of brain function as blind sight demonstrates. One question occurs to me is do we know how much of the brain's functioning is conscious?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 8:15 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 8:57 PM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 25 of 62 (167532)
12-12-2004 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Ben!
12-12-2004 8:18 PM


Congratulations! How does it go, stolen fruits taste the sweetest?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 8:18 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 8:49 PM lfen has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1421 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 26 of 62 (167534)
12-12-2004 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by lfen
12-12-2004 8:46 PM


I feel so dirty
I was raised Roman Catholic, and it doesn't leave my system easily

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 8:46 PM lfen has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1421 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 27 of 62 (167537)
12-12-2004 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by lfen
12-12-2004 8:43 PM


There is also blind sight, but those are unconscious which means we don't get to be conscious of them.
Well, we're talking about conscious / unconscious behavior, not conscious / unconscious perception... so I think blindsight is besides this point.
The inhibition I'm talking about is when you know you want to call someone a name and stifle that impulse for example.
For me, it's still not clear that inhibition acts on the timescale you need it too. I don't have any rigorous data. Even when you call to someone, maybe a little peep comes out... or you get a funny feeling in your throat from 'almost' saying something. That indicates you failed to stop it.
I guess it's a question of timing--timing when you intended to speak, when you intended to prevent it, and seeing how much delay there is. I don't mean to say that you're wrong, only that I don't know, and this is why I haven't sided with your intuition. That's all.
One question occurs to me is do we know how much of the brain's functioning is conscious?
We know some things that aren't conscious. One of my points in my statement of purpose is that we don't have a good handle on what IS conscious--yet there are some fundamental distinctions (declarative vs. non-declarative memory, and controlled vs. automatic attention) that are defined BY consciousness. Without a rigorous definition of consciousness, these areas are not rigorously defined either. So I'm interested in trying to eliminate the reference to consciousness, at least in the study of memory.
I tend to side with Dr. Ramachandran and his views when it comes to studying consciousness. I've never read any more interesting or informative information than the popular papers and textbook excerpts about his work and his thoughts.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 8:43 PM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 28 of 62 (167542)
12-12-2004 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Ben!
12-12-2004 8:18 PM


Ben,
I'm thinking we could be dicussing this in my thread "What is knowing".
I'll make a bump post there for you and others and make my response in that thread.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Ben!, posted 12-12-2004 8:18 PM Ben! has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 62 (167665)
12-13-2004 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by lfen
12-12-2004 2:09 PM


"That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real."
I suppose "present" here means "perceived"? So the idea is that that which is not perceived constantly is not real. In a deep dreamless sleep nothing is presented to consciousness, so Nothing is real. But this Nothing is nothing only in the sense of being no-thing (not in space and time?).
"there is something in us that is always conscious-that is, literally conscious or aware at all times and through all states, waking, dreaming, sleeping."
How can it be "conscious" if I am not aware of it? Because the "I" is not the "I" in the sense of ego. The "I" is Spirit or Mind which is the Absolute. We are God.
I think I got it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by lfen, posted 12-12-2004 2:09 PM lfen has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 62 (167670)
12-13-2004 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by robinrohan
12-12-2004 11:12 AM


Hedonism is a perfectly reasonable kind of nihilism.
How is hedonism a kind of nihilism? Because a person enjoys the senses of the world, they must believe that there is no meaning to life?
Man, that's a crap line of thinking. In my experience, the people who take the most pleasure from life are the ones who find the most meaning in it. That pleasure can be from what ever source you want... either on your knees in church, or on your knees in the bedroom.
This is the basic flaw in your line of thinking, here... the assumption that if there is not a pre-established meaning of life before we arrive, then there can be none. Presumably, because humankind is so inherently uncreative as to be unable to carve out our own meanings and purposes, for each individual life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by robinrohan, posted 12-12-2004 11:12 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by robinrohan, posted 12-13-2004 10:02 AM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-13-2004 10:22 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
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