God or No God - that is the question (for atheists)

Preamble
"It has often been said that the most important questions anyone could ever ask are: "Who am I?". "Why am I here?" and "Where am I going?" Dealing as they do with issues of a persons identity, meaning and destiny. they are obviously of great significance, but even these are secondary when put alongside one which is both fundemental and inescapable: 'Does God exist?' This is the question and every debate about human life and death and about the universe in which humanity lives and dies, ultimately revolves around it. Those who disagree over the question of God's existance are not merely crossing paper swords over some interesting but ultimately irrelevant point of science, philosophy or theology - they are disagreeing over the greatest issue of all. The contemporary British philosopher C.Stephan Evans hits the nail on the head when he says "The person who believes in God and the person who does not believe in God do not merely disagree about God. They disagree about the very character of the universe" (source: Foreword from 'Does God believe in Athiests' by John Blanchard)Question for discussion:
If you feel you have already found the answer to the question and the answer is 'No God' - on what basis do you say that?Thesis
If God exists then he is big. Very big. If God exists it means there exists a being who is first cause for everything. He is the one who 'flung stars into space', he created the laws of nature with which we achieve/destroy so much, he caused all the atoms and molecules on which these laws operate: at both micro and macro levels. He is the one who caused mechanisms which have produced pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness,joy, peace, etc - of which, if we apply a bit of humility, we know relatively little of the total there is to know about them. If God exists, then he 'created' us, the most exquisite thing, as far as we can tell, in all his Creation.There are relatively few folk who have lived, who can even begin to comprehend but a very small piece of the vast amount of knowledge that man has generated in his history. But even that vast knowledge is but a speck when it comes to that required to understand the nature, means and purposes of a God who could have caused it all to come into existance in the first place.If God exists, then it should be apparent that he is so very.....BIG, the only possible way that a mere man could come to any knowledge and understanding of him, would be if God was the one to reveal that knowledge of himself - to man. Whilst man can examine the world around him, he can only tentively decide, from analysis of 'Creation', whether or not a Creator exists. In other words, there is nothing in the 'Creation' which points, in and of itself, inarguably towards a Creator.Man has not the means within himself, to know if God exists or not. God has to be the one to show he exists. Thus, any argument as to the non-existance of God, based on science or experience or gut feeling, etc. is, I will argue, an inappropriate vehicle on which to arrive at a 'No' conclusion.Yet the answer to the question 'does God exist?' remains the most important one to get - for everybody.

Moved to Faith and Belief by AdminJar

I have no idea at all if God exists or not - I have not see anything to suggest he does and nothing to rule out his existance either.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 06-Aug-2005 02:03 PM

A person who believes that evil occurs in the universe because God chooses not to intervene (according to his own ineffable plan) and a person who believes that evil occurs in the universe because there is no God to intervene do not disagree about the very character of the universe. Evans is wrong. Well, when I say "No God", I mean "No God as described in the Bible and by Christians", because that God obviously does not exist.Even as an atheist I cannot reasonably conclude the existence of no gods at all. But the most popular ones - the gods that might actually be able to exert some influence in our lives - are disproved through their own inaction, because action would be necessitated by their natures. A benevolent, omnipotent God does not exist in a universe were evils are committed unchecked - having the power to take action but choosing not to is not benevolent; having the will to take action but lacking the power to do so is not omnipotent. We can conclude that the benevolent, omnipotent God does not exist. All that's left right now are gods who lack power or who take no action, and who cares about them? The corellary to this is that if God doesn't exist, then God isn't very big at all, or mysterious. And therefore "Man" would indeed be able to have the knowledge to know that he doesn't exist. What would be the use of that? He'd be showing himself to a mind that wouldn't have the capability to understand. If man doesn't have the means, then he doesn't have the means. If human reason is flawed then it is flawed, and there's no way to circumvent that. Even for God. God can present the perfect information to you but it still enters your mind flawed.If man cannot know that God exists, then he cannot know, even if God tells him so. I also agree that the existence of all possible gods cannot be falsified, which means the existence of God is an undecidable proposition. Nonetheless there are many Gods that we can falsify, and because I recognize this, I'm an atheist. I don't see how. If the question were that important it would be answerable. Unanswerable questions are irrelevant.

stoping say that god is real and he takes care of my grandma in heaven!

You want us to stop saying God is real? But if he's not real how is he looking after your grandma?I don't wish to be too sound too unkind, maybe this site is full of people a little older than you are used to?How old are you?This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 06-Aug-2005 02:23 PM

If you're looking for someone to tell you that fairy tales are real, ask your parents.God is, unfortunately, not real, and there is no heaven. I don't know where your grandma is but she's not there. There's also no Santa Claus and no Easter Bunny.The good news is that human beings are the kind of people that would make up a huge worldwide conspiracy about a jolly fatman, spend millions of dollars, and co-ordinate efforts on a global scale, just to see kids smile on Christmas morning.People, in balance, are way better than any god.

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Yet the answer to the question 'does God exist?' remains the most important one to get - for everybody.

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I don't quite agree with this. If the creator simply created the universe and is a passive observor, taking little interest in the rather minor detail we label "humanity", then it really doesn't matter to any of us that this creator exists.If the implied question is: "Does a god exist who has a definite purpose for humanity?" then one can begin to argue that the question becomes important.

Oh, this is just darth vader/ritten trolling again. Charles seems to have figured it out.

Sitt, Please tell us how old you are?If you are looking for a place to discuss your grandmother and heaven, this board is not the place for you. Here you WILL hear non-believers offering their opinion. If you do not wish to hear this opinion then please leave now.

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AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

crashfrog dont you dear talk about my grandma in that way and her spirit is alive! plus my city San Antonio, Texas is the best and safest city in usa we have no terrorists plus not many crimes!

So I see.

When you get older, please come back.

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the answer is 'No God' - on what basis do you say that?

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He didn't light the candle.

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If God exists, then he 'created' us, the most exquisite thing, as far as we can tell, in all his Creation.

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Why do you think we are the most exquisite thing on the planet? Quite frankly, we function more like a disease on the planet.

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the only possible way that a mere man could come to any knowledge and understanding of him, would be if God was the one to reveal that knowledge of himself - to man.

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He still hasn't lit the candle.

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Whilst man can examine the world around him, he can only tentively decide, from analysis of 'Creation', whether or not a Creator exists. In other words, there is nothing in the 'Creation' which points, in and of itself, inarguably towards a Creator.

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Because God resides in the imaginations and writings of mankind, not the real world.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

If that means your agnostic then I'll be posting the same question couched for agnotics. Hint: It'll contain the the same text just about , only a different question. After this one though. See you then