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Author Topic:   Is there a contradiction between Deuteronomy and Jonah?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 22 of 65 (107021)
05-10-2004 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by almeyda
05-10-2004 1:58 AM


Re: ...
I am sorry that you cannot see the contradiction. However since it is a clear without-a-doubt contradiction I cannot see that presenting another example would help.
Perhaps you don't know much about the Bible. Perhaps you do not realise that Deuteronomy is part of the Law and that even under Christian interpretations it applies at least until the establishment of the New Covenant by Jesus. If you want to argue that God changed the Law in this respect between times of Deuteronomy and Jonah then you really need to find a place in the Bible where such a momentous change was made.

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 Message 18 by almeyda, posted 05-10-2004 1:58 AM almeyda has not replied

  
cromwell
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 65 (107038)
05-10-2004 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulK
05-10-2004 4:04 AM


Gods will
Sorry! But this was not a prophecy.
It was a proclamation of doom.The words at Jonah 3:4 only state what Jonah believed was going to happen.Not understanding Gods purpose fully,he believed that he was giving a message of definate destruction.
Looking at how God works you have to relate this proclamation to a similar destruction of a city/cities,e.g.that of Sodom and Gomorrah.
If you proved to be righteous you were saved.In fact they were questioning God wether he would destroy the city if a certain number of righteous people were left in it.
Lot and his family were the only ones that were not of the debased condition that had taken a firm grasp of the entire inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.Likewise if you repented of your sins then you were saved from Gods destruction, as in the case with the Ninevites.For God to have destroyed them he would have been God that simply destroys for the sake of it.
This is what a true prophecy of destruction of Ninevah was like....
Zephaniah 2:13,14 This destruction did happen...
13And he will stretch out his hand toward the north, and he will destroy Assyria. And he will make Nineveh a desolate waste,a waterless region like the wilderness.
14And in the midst of her, droves will certainly lie stretched out, all the wild animals of a nation. Both pelican and porcupine will spend the night right among her pillar capitals. A voice will keep singing in the window. There will be devastation at the threshold; for he will certainly lay bare the very wainscoting.
Its Destruction Fulfills Prophecy. Although repenting at the preaching of Jonah (Mt 12:41; Lu 11:30,32),the Ninevites relapsed and again took to their wicked ways.It was some years after Assyrian King Sennacherib had been murdered at Nineveh in the house of his god Nisroch (2Ki 19:36,37; Isa 37:37,38) that Nahum (1:1; 2:8—3:19) and Zephaniah (2:13-15) foretold the destruction of that wicked city. Their prophecies were fulfilled when the combined forces of Nabopolassar the king of Babylon and of Cyaxares the Mede besieged and captured Nineveh. The city was evidently subjected to burning, for many Assyrian reliefs show damage or stain from fire and accompanying smoke. With reference to Nineveh, a Babylonian chronicle reports: They carried off the vast booty of the city and the temple (and) [turned] the city into a ruin heap. (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A.Grayson, 1975,

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 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2004 4:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 25 by Brian, posted 05-10-2004 6:56 AM cromwell has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 24 of 65 (107042)
05-10-2004 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by cromwell
05-10-2004 6:22 AM


Re: Gods will
How can it not be a prophecy ?
I suggest that you read Deuteronomy 18 and tell me why on the basis of that text a prediction sent by God should not be considered a prophecy.
If Jonah did not know of a get-out clause it is becuase there was none in the message sent to him. Since Deuteronomy makes no alowance for such things the contradicton is still valid.

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 Message 23 by cromwell, posted 05-10-2004 6:22 AM cromwell has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 25 of 65 (107044)
05-10-2004 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by cromwell
05-10-2004 6:22 AM


Re: Gods will
Hi,
I would like to make a comment on this:
Sorry! But this was not a prophecy.
It was a proclamation of doom.
I think you misunderstand what 'prophecy' is. Prophecy is NOT a prediction about the future, prophecy is only proclamation. A prophet prophesies whenever he passes on any message from God, that's what prophecy is. True, a prophecy may contain a prediction about a future event, but prophecy itself is only the passing on of God's words by a prophet.
This is a very common error, but prophecy does not equal prediction.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by cromwell, posted 05-10-2004 6:22 AM cromwell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Percy, posted 05-10-2004 9:48 AM Brian has replied
 Message 32 by cromwell, posted 05-10-2004 3:50 PM Brian has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 26 of 65 (107069)
05-10-2004 9:33 AM


I still see no contradiction
First, an aside, only to say I hope we can stay focused on the topic and avoid becoming personal.
On to the topic: I still don't see a contradiction. Jonah seems simply a circumstance not anticipated by Deuteronomy. The argument that Deuteronomy covers all possible contingencies and that anything not explicitly addressed must be interpreted using only Deuteronomy falls pretty flat for me.
I also share the reaction of someone else who posted earlier to this thread, though I'd phrase it a bit differently: if this is one of the better contradictions you can come up with, then those who claim the Bible is without internal contradictions are in pretty good shape.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2004 10:04 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 29 by Sylas, posted 05-10-2004 11:16 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 27 of 65 (107076)
05-10-2004 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brian
05-10-2004 6:56 AM


Re: Gods will
Brian writes:
I think you misunderstand what 'prophecy' is.
There are few words in the English language with a single definition across all contexts, and I don't believe prophecy is one of them. The context of this discussion interprets prophecy as a prediction of the future, and I think we've been consistent so far. Unless you think some of the opinions or Biblical quotes offered here have been using a different definition of prophecy.
That being said, I don't agree with Cromwell that it wasn't a prophecy but a proclamation.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 05-10-2004 6:56 AM Brian has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 28 of 65 (107081)
05-10-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Percy
05-10-2004 9:33 AM


Re: I still see no contradiction
I still don't see the problem.
Deuteronomy 18:22 clearly states that if a prophecy does not come to pass it is not from God.
Therefore if a prophecy comes from God then it must come to pass.
This is simple logic ~a => ~b (not-a implies not-b) is equivalent to b => a (b implies a).
If Deuteronomy did not forsee that God might change His mind then Deuteronomy is in error. Remember that Deuteronomy mandates execution in this case so it would be negligent in the least to have to wait for Jeremiah to come and issue a correction - the more so since the passage from Jeremiah does not even indicate that it does represent a correction to the Law. Moreover Deuteronomy 18:17 attributes this passage directly to God, so any oversight must be directly attributed to God Himself (which is why Deuteronomy 18:20 uses the first person to refer to God - "My name").
I don't see how any suggestion that Deuteronomy makes such a serious error could be considered as a defence even if it were not directly attributed to God.

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Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 29 of 65 (107105)
05-10-2004 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Percy
05-10-2004 9:33 AM


Re: I still see no contradiction
Percy writes:
On to the topic: I still don't see a contradiction. Jonah seems simply a circumstance not anticipated by Deuteronomy. The argument that Deuteronomy covers all possible contingencies and that anything not explicitly addressed must be interpreted using only Deuteronomy falls pretty flat for me.
If we are willing to treat the bible like a normal book, and acknowledge that what is written in the form of an absolute statement might actually not be quite that absolute, and fails to anticipate some other circumstances, then the major point at issue in the matter of "contradictions" is already conceded.
I don't worry about contradictions all that much. For me, the bible was written over a long period of time by a range of different people and with a number of different perspectives. Some of those perspectives are in tension with each other. We might even say they show conflicting views of the writers.
But there are folks who down play the role of human authors, and deny any possible impact of human subjectivity to compromise the status of the bible as a word direct from God.
The issue of "contradictions" is brought up to refute that extreme perspective.
This example succeeds in showing the vacuity of that extreme view of the bible. The law recorded in Deuteronomy does indeed does not anticipate the circumstances which are described in the story of Jonah. Yet there is no hint in Deuteronomy of limited scope; it is a blanket uncompromising statement; and by the standards of that statement, Jonah would be condemned to die as a false prophet.
Part of what bothers me about "contradictions" is that the reaction is to deny the possibility of contradiction, and use that as a basis for interpreting the story. For example, we have attempts to express the story of Jonah as if Jonah was merely passing on a conditional threat. But part of the impact of the story is the very fact of God changing His mind. And the act of God changing His mind is the very circumstance not anticipated in Deuteronomy, in the expression of a law which would indeed unjustly have condemned Jonah as a false prophet.
The question which establishes the formal contradiction is a simple one; and you can answer this if you like, Percy. In your opinion would the application of the law in Deuteronomy have unjustly condemned Jonah to death?
The answer I give is yes. Of course it would.
Jonah is one of my favourite books in the bible. I love the lesson it gives to the hard hearted prophet. It is a lesson which could stand to be learned by many people today. It is an anticipation of the gospel and the principle of love for enemies.
I see in the history of Israel a history of many conflicts; military, religious, ethical. Some of those conflicts find their way into the bible. If we insist that the bible is the work of one single mind, the force of the story of Jonah is, in my opinion, lost. The real conflict here is not an absolute conflict of logical propositions. It is a tension between two disparate ways of relating to outsiders.
There are passages in the bible which show an extreme xenophobia and intolerance of other peoples than tribe of the writer. There are passages relating to the anguish of defeat in war and bitter anger at the conquerors, and a desire for terrible revenge. Yet there are at the same time passages which show a desire and value for reconciliation, and the worth of all God's people of every nation. These views are not consistent with each others; but they are expressed by different people at different times, so this is not surprising, and not a problem with the bible. In fact, it is a strength that various views are incorporated, for those who regard the bible as a compilation; the religious literature of a people who were learning about God. For those who treat the bible as one book by one author, this gets a bit more difficult; but I think that approach obscures what the bible can offer a serious reader.
The book of Jonah was written for people for whom the Ninevites (Assyrians) were their bitter enemies. The lesson is clear; don't hate your enemies; they are people also, of value to God. Actually, the book of Jonah is one of the clearest examples of a parable in the old testament. It is not history. It is fiction; just like the parables of Jesus. Many people take that as criticism; but it isn't. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with parables, any more than there is anything wrong with the parables of Jesus.
And indeed, there is scope here for a perfectly legitimate way of reconciling the apparent formal conflict. The resolution is that Jonah is fiction. The literary device of God changing His mind is part of the story, and gives considerable dramatic impact. But it is not intended to teach that God changes his mind. It is intended to teach a hard lesson to listeners, who will identify with the prophet Jonah, about the humanity of their enemies.
But I don't like that resolution, because it loses the dimension of the anonymous author of Jonah being in plain conflict with the religious presumptions of the time, and speaking a confrontational prophecy to the Israelites about their heart heartedness. We can see the need for that prophecy in the intolerance of certain other passages in the bible.
Cheers -- Sylas
(edited to make this from my non-admin id)
This message has been edited by Sylas, 05-10-2004 08:41 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Percy, posted 05-10-2004 9:33 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 30 of 65 (107125)
05-10-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Sylas
05-10-2004 11:16 AM


Re: I still see no contradiction
Sylas writes:
The question which establishes the formal contradiction is a simple one; and you can answer this if you like, Percy. In your opinion would the application of the law in Deuteronomy have unjustly condemned Jonah to death?
The answer I give is yes. Of course it would.
Well, yes, but the question concerns a possible contradiction, and an answer that seems more reasonable to me, and one that I think most people would find reasonable, is to look at Deuteronomy and say, "Jonah's situation isn't covered here."
Deuteronomy is telling how to recognize a false prophet whose message did not come from God, but we know Jonah is not a false prophet, because we are told his message was given him by God. The punishment Deuteronomy proscribes is for false prophets. While the men of Jonah's time might have erroneously concluded Jonah was a false prophet and meted out the proscribed punishment, it would have been wrong, and so we agree.
But it is not a contradiction, not a case of Deuteronomy saying one thing and Jonah saying another. It is simply a case that the reader of the Bible has information available to him, namely that Jonah's message did indeed come from God, that wasn't available to the people of Jonah's time.
--Percy

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Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2004 1:46 PM Percy has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 31 of 65 (107128)
05-10-2004 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Percy
05-10-2004 1:37 PM


Re: I still see no contradiction
Percy, I think I see the problem. I think you are stuck on the idea that my argument is that Jonah is a false prophet. But my argument is that it is the test of a false prophet in Deuteronomy that contradicts the book of Jonah. If the test is to be reliable - and since we don't want to reject true prophecies and wrongly execute true prophets it had better be - then God can't change His mind about prophecies as the Book of Jonah and Jeremiah say He sometimes does.
You agree that the test in Deuteronomy would indeed justify Jonah's execution and that if we believe the Book of Jonah's statements that Jonah's prophecy did come from God that execution would be wrong. So you aren't actually disagreeing with any element of the contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Percy, posted 05-10-2004 1:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 05-10-2004 5:27 PM PaulK has replied

  
cromwell
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 65 (107166)
05-10-2004 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brian
05-10-2004 6:56 AM


Re: Gods will
Prophecy is an inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or proclamation Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come. Prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages (Heb., na va; Gr., prophecy, propheteuo
Basically the word prophecy is applicable only if it is divinally inspired.
I originally misunderstood the true meaning of prophecy.I should have known it,or at least verified its true meaning before I posted.(Hasty reply. I was working!)However the word prophecy has a broad meaning and in the case of Jonah it is true "prophecy".Here it is being misrepresented and forced upon the issue to suit,as words to match the words false prophecy in Deutronomy 18:20-22.Deutronomy is referring to false non divinally inspired prophets.
Now that I’ve looked at Deutronomy 18:20-22 properly I should have realised that this is referring to false prophets.Those that prophesize of their own back.Those that choose to make others believe that it is divinally inspired. >>Jonah and Jeremiah were divinally inspired<< So the connection with Deutronomy is not applicable.If we break down the Deutronomy 18:20-22 We can see that the context is referring to false prophets...
Deutronomy 18:20
"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." ...
This is referring to false prophets.Those "presumptuous" ones that have not got Gods authority to prophesise.They only choose to use Gods name.This does not include Jonah and Jeremiah.
21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' ...See last paragraph below.
22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously...
This again is referring to speaking in the name of God only.False prophets have spoken in the name of God but not through divine inspiration of God. Nahum 1:2."Jehovah"is a God exacting exclusive devotion.
Jonah was told to "prophesise" though in Gods name.A warning message to the Ninevites.God was utilising mans free will to serve God.He was initially going to destroy Ninevah,so the "prophecy" was not false,it was merely changed because of their change of heart and that God is a God of love and gave the Ninevites a chance.
Testing Prophecy and Its Interpretation:
In view of the activity of false prophets, John warned against believing every inspired expression, which is basically what prophecies are. Instead, he admonished Christians to test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God. (1Jo 4:1) John cites one doctrine as a means for determining divine origin of the inspired expression, namely, Christ’s having come in the flesh. Obviously, however, he was not saying that this was the sole criterion but evidently was citing an example of something currently, perhaps predominantly, in dispute then. (1Jo 4:2, 3) A vital factor is the prophecy’s harmony with God’s revealed word and will (De 13:1-5; 18:20-22),and this harmony could not be partial but must be complete for the prophecy or an interpretation of prophecy to be correct.
20 But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'
21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously...
(All quotes from NASB)

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Justin Clark
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 65 (107191)
05-10-2004 5:20 PM


The word overthrown can be translated changed are converted. Thats what happened to the people of Nineveh. Jesus declared Jonah a prophet and I believe Him.

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 34 of 65 (107195)
05-10-2004 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by PaulK
05-10-2004 1:46 PM


Re: I still see no contradiction
PaulK writes:
But my argument is that it is the test of a false prophet in Deuteronomy that contradicts the book of Jonah.
Sorry, I don't see a contradiction on this point, either. It is not a case of Deuteronomy requiring one test for a false prophet, while Jonah provides a conflicting test. Jonah doesn't even suggest a test for detecting false prophets.
And it isn't that Deuteronomy proposes one punishment for a false prophet while Jonah proposes another.
All you've got is that God has left Jonah in the vulnerable position of appearing to be a false prophet by the rules of Deuteronomy.
By the way, aren't there examples prior to Deuteronomy of God changing his mind? For example, when God wanted to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, didn't Abraham get God to repeatedly change his mind about the number of good men it would take to spare those cities? "If I find fifty righteous people...", and God said not for fifty, and then "If I find forty-five...", and God said not for forty five, and so forth on down in increments all the way to ten.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2004 1:46 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2004 7:21 PM Percy has replied
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 35 of 65 (107201)
05-10-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by PaulK
05-09-2004 6:58 PM


Paulk quote:
______________________________________________________________________
There is no other alternative
______________________________________________________________________
Yes there is.
You are deifying the text and contents of the law ABOVE the Law-giver: God.
Deuteronomy is talking about a general precept. The specifics of Jonah and Nineveh were if this (repent/don't repent) then that (destruction/spare from destruction).
I completely agree with Percy/post #26 on this issue.
Why would God create a record that contradicts itself ?
He didn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 05-09-2004 6:58 PM PaulK has replied

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 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2004 7:27 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 36 of 65 (107209)
05-10-2004 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
05-10-2004 5:27 PM


Re: I still see no contradiction
But it is a contradiction. Deuteronomy says that the test for a false propheet is to see if his predictions do not come true. The Book of Jonah says that Jonah was a true prophet even though the only prediction he credits him with did not come true.
It really is a simple and obvious contradiction. I really don't see what your objection is. Surely you aren't saying that we can't apply logic (in the strict sense) to Deuteronomy 18:22 ? Because by strict logic we can go straight from "if a prophecy predicts events that fail to occur it did not come from God" to "if a prophecy comes from God the predicted events will not fail to occur" - which directly contradicts Jonah and Jeremiah who say that prophecies that come from God CAN fail to occur.
Your reference to Abraham is of questionable relevance since it is prior to Moses revealing the Law which is (supposedly) the contents of Deuteronomy. Even if there were a clear prophecy involved (unlike, say the case of God deciding to destroy the Israelites and being talked out of it by Moses), which I do not think is the case it still could be said that since the Law had not been revealed, it did not apply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 05-10-2004 5:27 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Percy, posted 05-11-2004 8:01 AM PaulK has replied

  
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