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Author Topic:   Faith by Definition
jar
Member
Posts: 31760
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 91 of 149 (435926)
11-23-2007 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by iano
11-23-2007 7:31 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Er..I know I did have a divine experience. The divine made it so that I know it was divine. Can we agree that the divine (as classically defined: omnipotent and all that) can rearrange whatever it is in me that "knows" or "knows not" into "I know"*.

*lets suppose "molecular arrangement of some portion of my mind" for the sake of argument

No, not unless you can present what those changes are and how they can be tested.

You keep moving the goal posts and trying to palm the pea. The question is not what God can do, it is how someone can determine if an experience is divine or not.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:31 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:52 PM jar has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 92 of 149 (435928)
11-23-2007 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
11-23-2007 7:41 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Tested? As in testing the existance of the divine? Like, we cannot even test the existance of ourselves!!

The question is not what God can do, it is how someone can determine if an experience is divine or not.

The question can easily be, in toto, what God can do. You (philosophically) assume otherwise - without mentioning the proof that you seem to suppose underlies your case.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 7:41 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 7:58 PM iano has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31760
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 93 of 149 (435930)
11-23-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
11-23-2007 7:52 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Still another attempt to misdirect the audience's attention while you palm the pea.

Of course we can run tests on my existence, and anyone can independently verify much, but you still avoid providing the support for your assertion.

I can be weighed. I can be photographed. I can be xrayed. Independent observers can test my existence.

Please list the tests that can be used by anyone, believer or non-believer to determine if some experience is divine or non-divine.

Quit trying to con the folk.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:52 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:13 PM jar has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 94 of 149 (435932)
11-23-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
11-23-2007 7:58 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
Of course we can run tests on my existence: I can be weighed. I can be photographed. I can be xrayed. Independent observers can test my existence.

You suppose to invoke all these "people" and items of "equipment" BEFORE you have demonstrated the existance of self? To assume they exist so as to demonstrate you exist. How very circular!

"I'm xrayable - therefore I am"

Quit trying to con the folk.

Hrrumph...

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 7:58 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:17 PM iano has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31760
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 95 of 149 (435934)
11-23-2007 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by iano
11-23-2007 8:13 PM


Iano continues to try to change the subject.
You suppose to invoke all these "people" and items of "equipment" BEFORE you have demonstrated the existance of self? To assume they exist so as to demonstrate you exist. How very circular!

What crap. A classic con attempt and yet another attempt to palm the pea.

I show methods that my existence can be verified.

Now it is your turn.

Provide the methods to determine if some experience is divine or non-divine?

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:13 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:18 PM jar has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 96 of 149 (435935)
11-23-2007 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
11-23-2007 8:17 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
If you can't handle the heat..

NEXT!!!

Jar (more or less) writes:

"I'm xrayable - therefore I am"

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:21 PM iano has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31760
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 97 of 149 (435937)
11-23-2007 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by iano
11-23-2007 8:18 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
Sorry but that still does not answer the question.

How can someone determine if an experience is divine or non-divine or admit that it cannot be done.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:18 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:36 PM jar has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 98 of 149 (435940)
11-23-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
11-23-2007 8:21 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
The reason it doesn't answer the question can lie as much in the weakness of questioning as in the attempt to answer.

How can someone determine if an experience is divine or non-divine or admit that it cannot be done.

It cannot be done by the person - not that that matters a jot.

It is done by the divine to the person. And if done by the divine the person knows it is the divine. They know it because of the ability of the divine to instill the sense we call "knowing".

Sure: it could be delusion. Or the devil playing games. But that's a problem for the extent of what it is to "know". All you can do is know - you're not the divine!

Night x

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:45 PM iano has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 149 (435941)
11-23-2007 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by iano
11-23-2007 6:04 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
quote:
Unless of course it is of divine origin. In which case it would be unique (in the sense of not having the flavor of the non-divine).

What "flavor" would that be, exactly?

Or, rather, how can anyone tell the difference?

quote:
There is little point in asking for clarification here- given that experience of the divine requires experience of the divine in order to compare to the non-divine.

Sure.

How does one tell the difference between an authentic or genuine divine experience from an imagined one?

After all, we know for a fact that people can manufacture or be induced by various means to produce all sorts of feelings, including ones described as deeply religious, spiritual, or divine.

quote:
Indeed, it is experience of the divine that permits you to realise that there is such a "league" as the non-divine.

Or, people who think there is such a thing as a "divine" experience are just telling themselves that, and that every experience is a non-divine experience.

How do we tell the difference?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 6:04 PM iano has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 149 (435942)
11-23-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by pelican
11-23-2007 6:15 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
"I don't know what a real spiritual experience is, or if such a thing even exists.
I thought that was abundantly clear in my last two replies to you, but I hope it is now."

quote:
If you don't know then how can you dispute Phat's experience?

Why should I take his word for it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by pelican, posted 11-23-2007 6:15 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by pelican, posted 11-28-2007 8:03 AM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 149 (435943)
11-23-2007 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by iano
11-23-2007 7:38 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
quote:
I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just saying that your knowing suffers from the same problems as does mine - when it comes to demonstrating itself absolutely

Of course, that's not true, and you have had this explained to you many times.

There are many ways to externally validate someone's existence and the fact that they are participating in an internet discussion.

We cannot do that at all for your claim of having had an authentic divine experience.

The two claims are not at all identical.

Since you have had this explained to you probably dozens of times by now, I must conclude you to be either dishionest or dense since you contine to repeat it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 7:38 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 12:24 PM nator has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31760
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 102 of 149 (435944)
11-23-2007 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by iano
11-23-2007 8:36 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
It is done by the divine to the person. And if done by the divine the person knows it is the divine. They know it because of the ability of the divine to instill the sense we call "knowing".

I'm sorry but that is simply bullshit nonsense. If they know it, "How do they know that it is divine or non-divine."

You still have simply avoided the question.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 11-23-2007 8:36 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 12:35 PM jar has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 103 of 149 (436091)
11-24-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
11-23-2007 8:44 PM


Re: Don't think you can palm the pea
iano writes:

I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just saying that your knowing suffers from the same problems as does mine - when it comes to demonstrating itself absolutely

Schraf writes:

Of course, that's not true, and you have had this explained to you many times. There are many ways to externally validate someone's existence and the fact that they are participating in an internet discussion.

These "many ways" of yours all involve the bald assumption that the tools used to demonstrate someone elses existance themselves exist. You mean to tell me you can't see the circularity of your argument? This is it: "I assume this tool to exist and I apply this assumed tool to demonstrate the existance of something who existance I am attempting to demonstrate"

Your knowing these tools exist doesn't mean they do Schraf - that's elemental. You seem to have a hard time admitting that you do precisely as I do - you assume your knowing certain things exist means they do. You assume that what you perceive to be real is real and move on to apply these perceived tools to particular perceived jobs which you also assume to be real.

Your general error is to forget that your argument has to attach to something concrete at the end. And there is nothing concrete at the end. Your structure is built on a foundation called Your Assumptions About The Nature Of Reality. Just as mine is.

The two claims are not at all identical.

The foundations are indeed identical. The structures each of us build will depend upon what we perceive the reality to be. But its the foundation that's important.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 11-23-2007 8:44 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by nator, posted 11-24-2007 7:35 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 104 of 149 (436095)
11-24-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
11-23-2007 8:45 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
iano writes:

It is done by the divine to the person. And if done by the divine the person knows it is the divine. They know it because of the ability of the divine to instill the sense we call "knowing".

Jar writes:

If they know it, "How do they know that it is divine or non-divine." You still have simply avoided the question.

I don't believe I have. You seem to be labouring under the notion that the divine is not able to demonstrate his divinity.

Which would be foolish in the extreme. If we are to suppose that "knowing" is a particular arrangement of braincells (that differs to the arrangement of brain cells called "suspect that") then it doesn't take a major leap to suppose that the divine can ensure brain cells take on the arrangement call "knowing it is the divine"

How do I know? Because the divine made it so. How else do you suppose it could happen in not thus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 11-24-2007 12:39 PM iano has responded
 Message 106 by bluescat48, posted 11-24-2007 1:38 PM iano has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31760
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 105 of 149 (436097)
11-24-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by iano
11-24-2007 12:35 PM


Re: Iano continues to try to change the subject.
You seem to be labouring under the notion that the divine is not able to demonstrate his divinity.

No, I am asking how that is done and how it can be tested.

Let's try to stick to the issue and please stop trying to change the subject.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 12:35 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 11-24-2007 1:41 PM jar has responded

  
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