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Author Topic:   The Moneychangers
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 21 (374429)
01-04-2007 2:15 PM


Is it ok to make a buck in church?
The Moneychangers
There are two Gospel accounts of Jesus driving hawkers out of the temple courts.
NIV writes:
John 2:13-16--When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"
NIV writes:
Luke 19:45-46-- Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling. 46 "It is written," he said to them, "'My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it 'a den of robbers.'"
In organized religion today, we have many people who sell stuff in church. In one large church that I once attended, they had a bookstore and a gift shop.
Additionally, any time that well known evangelists come to town, they attempt to sell many books, tapes, and CDs...as well as T-Shirts and even coffee mugs!
Some examples:
Page not found - Benny Hinn Ministries
http://www.dennisleonardministries.com/...oducts/default.htm
Does anyone think that Jesus would be any nicer to these non prophets?
Does anyone have a problem with making a buck in church to cover expenses?
Faith/Belief
Edited by Phat, : add

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 21 (374483)
01-04-2007 4:12 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 3 of 21 (374510)
01-04-2007 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-04-2007 2:15 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
Phat writes:
Does anyone think that Jesus would be any nicer to these non prophets?
Does anyone have a problem with making a buck in church to cover expenses?
I am going to guess that there will be various takes on these two gospels.
Is it the buying and selling that made Jesus mad in itself, or that the whole thing was a secular mess?
Taking it literally, Jesus was mad because the church/temple is a place of worship. It is unpopular today to make churches all hush-hush and unwelcoming, but from a Catholic perspective I think Jesus could be very mad at buying and selling or any other disrespectful displays being done today. In Catholic churches there is the tabernacle of course, and usually a consecrated host signifying that Jesus is really present in the church. You are expected to behave in the manner you would if Jesus was in the room in person.
Of course, you can always take the Body of Jesus out of there if you need to do something in the church, but I have never understood the big necessity of holding choir performances, baptism classes, sales and fundraisers right in the middle of the churches when there are usually 3 or 4 defunct convents and schools nearby, not to mention parish offices and social centers, school gyms, etc. All you get is a bunch of people milling around in a bad mood and totally fogetting about all the fake rituals they do when they come to church on the weekends.
I don't imagine it to be the type of thing you would get condemned to hell over but in life you need some things to be treated just a little bit more seriously or it gets very hard to say 'enough is enough' and to keep the sense of the sacred in a place where everyone in the neighborhood has climbed all over the altar.
It's not about God wanting us to be miserable and afraid to be human in church, but since we bother believing in this God, I think it makes sense to act like we do. You stop acting the part, you stop believing. Personally, I don't hesitae when it comes to throwing out the Avon magazines in the ladies' rooms.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by ringo, posted 01-04-2007 6:48 PM anastasia has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 21 (374544)
01-04-2007 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by anastasia
01-04-2007 5:05 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
anastasia writes:
It's not about God wanting us to be miserable and afraid to be human in church, but since we bother believing in this God, I think it makes sense to act like we do.
So its all about respect, right?

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 21 (374551)
01-04-2007 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by anastasia
01-04-2007 5:05 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
anastasia writes:
... I have never understood the big necessity of holding choir performances, baptism classes, sales and fundraisers right in the middle of the churches....
Hmm.... I would have drawn the line between "choir performances and baptism classes" and "sales and fundraisers" - the former belong in church, the latter do not.
You stop acting the part, you stop believing.
I suspect you didn't mean that quite the way it sounds

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 6 of 21 (374556)
01-04-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
01-04-2007 6:48 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
Ringo writes:
Hmm.... I would have drawn the line between "choir performances and baptism classes" and "sales and fundraisers" - the former belong in church, the latter do not.
Hm, sorry. Choirs can perform in church but I was talking more like when orchestras and choirs are sitting in the altar area during performances outside of services...I saw one recently and they were all screaming at each other and acting prissy. It was nice though
The baptism classes make me mad because they set up tv's right next to the altar and gossip away.
I suspect you didn't mean that quite the way it sounds
Unfortunately, yes. I remember growing up we had to dress up every week. Then when we got older and started running late to church for the evening mass, mom was just glad we made it. Just coming in jeans once or twice kinda left me thinking 'well, what's the point of dressing up now'? Then you start coming late, then you start skipping, and you find out nothing bad happens to you then either. Just another snap of your fingers and poof! you're a nominal Catholic.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 7 of 21 (374558)
01-04-2007 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by anastasia
01-04-2007 7:23 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
anastasia writes:
Just another snap of your fingers and poof! you're a nominal Catholic.
Which is why some people **ahem** harp on the importance of being a Christian - i.e. living like a Christian - instead of just appearing to be a Christian - i.e. being seen going to and from church, professing the dogmas, etc.
Oddly enough, I think maybe that's what Jesus had against the moneychangers.
Do you really think He cares if you're "on time" or what you wear?

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 8 of 21 (374559)
01-04-2007 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
01-04-2007 6:09 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
Phat writes:
So its all about respect, right?
It is like the thread 'There is a God...what now?' Do we worship Him?
We humans have been in awe of the unknown for countless years. We have assumed that if there is a God He must be very worthy of worship, maybe even command worship just by being seen.
Worship is not as easy to deal with in our culture as it was in the age of kings and lords. We like to think of a friendly happy God who loves us the way He made us. Still, we have things we do to show respect even for public dignitaries, like clapping, keeping quiet, shaking hands. There is no ABSOLUTE to determine the correct way to worship. It evolves and changes from culture to culture and age to age. But if we claim to believe in God and are doing things that we wouldn't get away with in the White House that might be a problem.

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 9 of 21 (374565)
01-04-2007 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
01-04-2007 7:39 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
Ringo writes:
Do you really think He cares if you're "on time" or what you wear?
No, I don't think God cares, afterall it is the DOING of going to church that matters.
But I think for US we lose a little when we go from doing something to the best of our abilities, to doing it in a slip-shod manner. I have never dressed up for someone to see me (well, unless there were boys in church) but I have always felt that seeing other people take their faith to heart and act decent in church is pretty inspiring.
WEll, the point is that I could be sloppy because I stopped believing, or if I was sloppy long enough it would start to convince me too.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 21 (374574)
01-04-2007 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by anastasia
01-04-2007 8:03 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
anastasia writes:
... I have always felt that seeing other people take their faith to heart and act decent in church is pretty inspiring.
I've always been more inspired by how people act outside of church.
Do you suppose the moneychangers were the "pillars of the community" who sat in their special pews, assigned on the basis of their status? How else would they have the influence to conduct their business in the temple?
I'll mention it again: I think that maybe Jesus' reaction was based more on who they were and how they came to be there, rather than just on what they were doing.
From Monty Python's The Meaning of Life:
quote:
Chaplain: Let us praise God. O Lord...
Congregation: O Lord...
Chaplain: ...Ooh, You are so big...
Congregation: ...ooh, You are so big...
Chaplain: ...So absolutely huge.
Congregation: ...So absolutely huge.
Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...
Congregation: And barefaced flattery.
Chaplain: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.
Congregation: Fantastic.
Humphrey: Amen.
Congregation: Amen.
Decorum ain't everything.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 21 (374576)
01-04-2007 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-04-2007 2:15 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
Does anyone think that Jesus would be any nicer to these non prophets?
Many Christians and non-Christians alike find Benny Hinn utterly detestable. I don't know who the other guy is. When I see in Hinn on tv, I keep hearing a certain passage in my mind.
"They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them" -Matthew 7:15
Does anyone have a problem with making a buck in church to cover expenses?
I've thought about this too. I'm not so sure its as simple as selling things. I think there are a few factors at work. For instance, a church I used to attend before I moved was so good that I opted to get their audio cd's sent to me. It was kind of up to you how you wanted to do it. They didn't expect you to pay for it, even though producing it, manufacturing it, buying the packaging and postage across state lines is expensive. I paid for it as a courtesy so they could supplement others who were less fortunate but wanted to hear the Word. Its the same at my current church. When I first moved out here, we took a much heavier hit with moving expenses than expected. Between the moving truck, the gas for it and the POV, hotels, food, paying first and last month's rent at a new place, it gobbled up just about all of our funds. As well, it would be at least 2-3 weeks before I received a new paycheck. The new church immediately offered to have us raid their food bank. Nothing was expected of us. But because of the worthy ministry and the generosity shown to us, when we were finally settled, we gave back more than was given to us and offered to serve in their homeless outreach or any other capacity.
Having said that, they sell expensive Bibles in the bookstore. I think that's fine because if you don't have one, they'll also just give it away. The way they do it is allow for people to feel convicted. They don't pressure any one or ask them to pay tithes until they feel comfortable doing so.
That's why I say its kind of hit or miss. We all know the mega-churches who operate more like Wal-Mart and less like Peter and Paul's congregation. Are they fleecing the flock? I'm sure some of them are. But at the same time, I think we need to see what is being sold, what is being given away for free, and to look at the fruits they bear.
Now, the moneychangers at the Temple in the Bible were basically hustling. They saw the Temple as an opportune way of spreading their marketability. They made it all about themselves and whether they could gamble or sell doves, rather than give back to the community, which ultimately gives back to God.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 12 of 21 (374591)
01-04-2007 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
01-04-2007 8:47 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
Ringo writes:
I'll mention it again: I think that maybe Jesus' reaction was based more on who they were and how they came to be there, rather than just on what they were doing.
I am thinking about it Ringo. Right now it sems like you are turning it into the 'publican and the pharisee'. The two-faced-ness of the Jewish law abiders is a common theme in the gospels and Paul.
Even if Jesus' reaction was more heated based on WHO was selling in the temple, I think the point is still that it was not respectful. It does make sense to say 'if some stray gentiles were in there selling stuff' Jesus might have let them off easy for not knowing.
We know what we are doing when we profane God's holy churches, so you are right. That is what God finds more irritating than seeing a non-believer show up in short-shorts with her christian boyfriend.

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 13 of 21 (374593)
01-04-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
01-04-2007 8:55 PM


Re: Is it ok to make a buck in church?
I think you are right about the greed of the money-changers and how they forgot to act like they were even God's children the moment they saw the chance to make money, but...I don't think as per your reply that there is anything wrong with a church making money. Tithing was a law I think? and sure they all have to survive somehow. It's just, where would you set up the book shop?
But there I draw the line, because I know that catholic churches have more designated 'holy' areas, and other churches might not see this passage as clean-cut in that area.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 14 of 21 (374658)
01-05-2007 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-04-2007 2:15 PM


Not just any church
I think you may be missing the point of this fairytale.
Jesus wasn't upset because there was money being exchanged in a church, it was specifically because it was the Temple, the Temple made for God.
The author of John for example even says 'To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" , it is just a story to try and convince people that God was Jesus' father.
What are the odds of one man clearing the Temple of its traders? Were the moneychangers little old ladies with little purses of money? I think realistically the moneychangers would be well protected and the area in general would be well guarded by Romans.
It is a wee story, you shouldn't read too much into it.
Brian.

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 15 of 21 (374747)
01-05-2007 3:22 PM


How the World Tithes
If you go out to eat do you not tithe (tip) the wait staff. Its not mandatory yet to tip the waitstaff (waiter & waitress, etc...) nor is it mandatory to tithe to God (the needy, your church, evagelists, etc...).
The money changers setting up their booths on church property for personal gain is like you going to a restaraunt and demanding service and then not tithing (tipping) the Wait staff. I suppose this is why were seeing an increase in the service fee in respect to the tithe (tip) to the wait staff in respect to how the world tithes.
If you go out to eat and do not tithe (tip) do you feel guilty about showing your face in that restaruant, etc...

  
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