Atheism isn't a belief?

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He lacks belief in God but has belief in something else.

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There is a difference between belief in a god and beliefs drawn from experience and probability.

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The athiest says "no evidence" but doesn't look in the appropriate place.

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Why do you feel it is the responsibility of the atheist to find your God? If I want people to see the dragon in my garage, I need to show them how. It's not their responsibility to figure out how.

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Lacking any indication that there is a natural reason, a supernatural reason is equally possible.

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The fanciful or imaginary belongs to the realm of the possible and when imagining, the mind is free from the restraints and restrictions of truth and reality.OTOH, knowledge and opinion (a belief not based on certainty or knowledge but on what seems true, valid, or probable) put the mind in the region of the real or actual rather than the merely possible, which makes them subject to the criteria of truth and falsity.IMO, the atheist deals with probablity not possibility.Anything is possible since our imaginations can take us anywhere, but not everything is probable (reasonably so, as on the basis of evidence, but not proved as in the probable cause of a disease).

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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So, I do not believe there is a god. It is not the case that I believe only naturalistic explanations are possible, merely that no evidence has been presented to suggest that supernatural explanations have merit.

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And iano has yet to provide any hint at evidence in two threads now and starting a third one in which I'm sure he will still claim not to have to provide any reasonable evidence.I enjoyed your post.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Green or Natural Burials are on the upswing in the past 10 years.Unfortunately you and I are in states that aren't jumping on the bandwagon.Link to States with Green BurialsOf course you could go Jewish. Good Luck

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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My advice (for what it's worth): start with the destination, then go on the journey.

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How does that help Christians who have become atheists?They started with the destination and the journey led them away from belief.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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What is a Christian?

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Unfortunately that is a question even Christians can't agree on. See thread What is a True Christian.Our "Christian" for this discussion grew up in the church and went through Bible Study before being baptised and accepting Christ as Savior. Our Christian was a very avid person of prayer. Praying to God to me states our Christian believed in God. After 30 years of Church life our Christian engaged in intense Bible Study and prayer searching for more about God, seeking to know God better.So I would say that this Christian was seeking to get closer to a God in whom they already believed. This journey led our Christian away from belief.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Or so the bible would appear to indicate

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Who specifically in the NT supports your idea of a one way deal?

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p.s. "Believing in God" is something even the demons did - and they weren't Christians!

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Although not spoken by Jesus, the point of this part of the sermon is dealing with showing ones faith by good works or actions. IOW, according to this author, the demons believe in God, but their works or lack there of would show their lack of goodness.Our Christian in question, is very service oriented, trustworthy, and ready to help those in need. So again I would say that this person is a Christian even by this excerpt from James.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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But it is not good works that save and only Christians will be saved. Plenty of people do good works. Many of them go to church. That doesn't make a person a Christian.

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But it does according to the passage you shared.If you looked at the thread "What is a True Christian" you saw that even Christians can't agree on what is a Christian. So your personal thoughts on what is or is not a Christian may or may not be true and the author of James disagrees with you.Technically the definition of a Christian is a follower of Christ. So our Christian was baptised and accepted Christ as Savior, followed the biblical teachings of Jesus Christ, and believed in God. His faith was obvious in his behavior. According to his church he is saved.So in our Christian's mind he is saved, he is a Christian, he is seeking a closer union with God.Again, who supports your idea of once in Christ no way out?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Good Grief!In Message 179 you stated: Where in the Bible is this supported?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Beg To Differ

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Purple Dawn keeps on trying to get me to go off topic.

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Thread Topic: Atheism isn’t a BeliefMuch as I dislike instant replays, here it goes.In Message 158 you state:

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Reason for God Chiroptera? Because God, in the face of the above, is not at all an unreasonable place to start a quest. My advice (for what it's worth): start with the destination, then go on the journey.

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In Message 171 I brought up the fact that there are Christians who started with the destination as you advise, but the journey led them away from belief. Not necessarily to a new belief.In Message 175 instead of addressing this type of journey you decided to define Christianity (poorly, I might add). You list all common Christian characteristics and state:

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I would suggest that none of the above constitutes a Christian thus if the above were base from which someone moved to athiesm (or anything else) then they moved alright, but not from Christianity

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In Message 177 I directed you to the thread What is a True Christian which shows that Christians can’t agree on what a Christian is.So I gave you a short description of our Christian: You had implied in Message 175 that seeking was the key and a true belief in God.But in Message 179 you dismiss our Christian’s belief and pretty much were saying it was false. Implying his journey wasn’t true seeking.

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The person did all this stuff, but was the person a Christian? You seem to know the bible. There is ample which indicates that a Christian (bible-defined) is one who is 'in Christ' and that the old man is dead and gone - he can't be resurrected. Once in Christ and man cannot go back it would appear.

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In Message 184 I asked you to support the statement above and show me where the bible supports this thought. I also gave you a little more info on our Christian, which is supported by the verse you supplied from James. Apparently you didn’t understand the question, because in Message 188 you didn’t provide anything to support your statements in Message 179.In Message 189 I asked you again to support your statements, which is not unreasonable.You are the one implying that my Christian is not a true Christian and that if he was able to become an atheist, that his belief wasn’t real either.As I said earlier: Technically the definition of a Christian is a follower of Christ. So our Christian was baptized and accepted Christ as Savior, followed the biblical teachings of Jesus Christ, and believed in God. His faith was obvious in his behavior. According to his church he is saved.So in our Christian's mind he is saved, he is a Christian, he is seeking a closer union with God.You are trying to negate my Christian’s 30+ years of belief instead of realizing that the journey doesn’t always take one to belief.Now if the Admins truly feel that this is off topic, they can move this post to my thread: Get To Know God (GTKG) 101. I feel it is very much on topic there. You can lay out the journey for all to see and discuss.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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In discussion, I am not appealing to proofs I'm appealing to reason.

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Personally, I don't think you know what reason or proofs are.

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The athiests postion can't be proven (I think), it can only be reasoned. So reason is the canvas for discussion - not proof.

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However, IMO, you do need to support your reasoning though. You are very quick to tell people they are wrong or that their view is unreasonable or not logical, but when asked to show support as to why, you jump to the I'm-not-providing-proofs-I'm-only-appealing-to-reason excuse. Even to reason we need facts whether true or assumed to make a conclusion. You fail to provide that support for your reasoning.

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Your desire to discuss what constitutes a Christian, although a valid an important one, would divert to far away from the core of the issue.

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I do not wish to discuss what constitutes a Christian. I already showed you that Christians can't agree on what constitutes a Christian.YOU made the claim that my Christian was not a true Christian and that since his journey led him to atheism, that his belief was not true.You made vague references to Bible support for that claim. I asked that you provide the specific verses that support your statements. That's not asking for proof. That's asking that you support your statements which you attributed to the Bible.In your battle against atheism you have alluded many many many times to the need to believe and desire to know God for his presence to be made known. Start at the destination you said and take the journey.I showed you an example of someone who did start at the destination, he had the belief, he had the desire, but the journey took him away from belief.In my Christian's mind he believes he is saved, he is a Christian, he is seeking a closer union with God, but the journey took him away from belief.So your reasoning is flawed. That is what we are discussing.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

As I understand it, Jews believe that man was created with both a Good Urge (yetzer ha-tov) and an Evil Urge (yetzer ha-ra).Paul personifies sin in Romans 7:7-25 to show the battle between our good and bad urges.Even though man is never totally free of his Yetzer Hara until he physically dies, Paul is trying to show that through the death of Jesus his follwers are supposedly free from the mastery of sin. Which makes sense, since nothing is wrong until a person, community or nation decides something is wrong.IOW, without being in Christ we are supposedly unable to follow the Jewish Laws because we are unable to master our evil urge. If Christ is "in" us then we can master our evil urge.I think that's why theist feel that atheist are unable to just do what is right without a belief in God.Really the only purpose of the Jewish laws (as in most communities) were to tell the community what was right and wrong.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

As I said earlier, you don't really know what reason is.Oddly enough the laws (all are not laws) you listed are all man made and do change over time. They changed from the OT to the NT.If, as you have been suggesting over and over again, God created the universe, earth, etc., then the actual laws of God are the laws of nature, physics, etc. If I understand them correctly, then those are laws that man cannot change and they don't change with time.As far as I know, I have not broken any laws of nature, physics, etc.
One hand up for me.

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if somone slights you, defames you, hurts you you should turn the other cheek - and forgive them - even if they do it again and again..

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I love it when you mix your lessons. Very entertaining.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Given that I know God exists (as opposed to just believe it) then I can talk about you and your bb gun. The proof of my knowing cannot be shown to you because the proof occurs in the supernatural. It's not my fault, nor the supernaturals fault. It's your choice by not choosing to seek the proof.

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You may say you have no evidence for his existance etc. But if you can't show, then you don't know. That's agnosticism.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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And is it possible to "know" something to be true when in actual fact it isn't?

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Using the meaning of know as in to have knowledge, then no you could not have knowledge that the sun is cold, when it isn't.I think theist use the word in in the sense of to be aware of; have perceived or learned as in to know that one is loved.Sometimes I think we are working with a different set of word meanings. Makes it hard to discuss, don't you think?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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purpledawn writes:

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But if you can't show, then you don't know.

Have you got any reasoned thinking behind that statement. Given that for me to know something myself I only need to show myself.

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Actually that is your statement from God or No God.So I only need to show myself that God does not exist.Excellent!

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France