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Author Topic:   Atheism isn't a belief?
iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 271 of 329 (237474)
08-26-2005 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by PurpleYouko
08-26-2005 3:26 PM


Re: Summary on topic
PurpleYouko writes:

No it isn't. There is no doctrine of Atheism and there is no "something else". A newborn baby is by definition an atheist.

Athiests don't sit in a vacuum. Their NO GOD isn' arrived at in a vacuum - much as many would like to argue that it is. If NO GOD then I ask why? Lets deal with you again. What did you say again was your means of arrival at this conclusion. Do you remember the push factors at all? The 'no objective evidence' and 'the push of science' if I remember correctly. No vacuum PY, No vacuum.

And I can't see how you can say anything either way about babies either.

I am utterly lost for words. Has nothing that Purple Dawn, DominionSeraph, myself and others have said, sunk in at all?

It has indeed. And I've yet to hear an atheist say they arrived at the conclusion with no push in the direction. That they haven't formed the conclusion by a pull/push from something else. No vacuums mentioned yet. Except theoretically. But vacuum = a-anything. And I've yet to meet one of those here. The rationale has been remarkably consistant throughout: "No objective evidence for God" (push) and "Objective evidence for something else". (pull)

I don't want to sound rude here but debating you is a bit of a waste of time. No matter how many examples I throw at you that substantiate my position, you just ignore them and carry right on, utterly unaffected..

It doesn't matter one tiny little bit what else I believe or don't believe. That one central feature defines me as an atheist. I don't believe in god. Everything else is completely and utterly irrelevent to everybody except you.

I'm sorry your frustrated. Don't think that I haven't been a bit too at times. This has been a long haul for everyone. Please remember though that I have largely been on my own here and have had plenty come at me from you, ds, pd,cp,pe,omiv. I'm not looking for sympathy but do grant me a little slack will you

"One central feature".... you pose a causeless position. I'm afraid that everything in the world has been shown to have a prior cause PY. So much so that I have to take this position with a pinch of salt. Nothing happens for no reason. Nothing. You yourself mentioned push factors earlier. I can't just let you retract them because it's convenient for you now. Remember, I helped you come up with a defintion of SA with it's push factors and all. You were happy with that definition. Now we've come a full circle.


"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-26-2005 3:26 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-29-2005 8:47 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 272 of 329 (237478)
08-26-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by DominionSeraph
08-26-2005 4:54 PM


The final countdown....
dominionseraph writes:

What's the 'something else' if you don't believe that there's a dog fighting a chicken two universes over?

Whatever it is that happens to float your boat ds. You don't believe in God. So what do you believe in then? If it's nothing then you are a-anything not a-theist. If its anything else then its 'something' and you have a religion. It matters little what it is so long as it keeps on meeting your needs.


"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-26-2005 4:54 PM DominionSeraph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-27-2005 2:09 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 273 of 329 (237486)
08-26-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by purpledawn
08-26-2005 3:46 PM


Re: Summary on topic
purpledawn writes:

You have been told that atheism only deals with god, not anything else. As I showed you in Message 248. If I believe that nature is all that exists, then I am a naturalist

Told maybe, showed definitely not. If you are a naturalist then you have a basis, a reason for atheism. Whether you started there or were pulled there matters not. You have a reason for atheism. A something

If you are not a naturalist or have no other reason to be an atheist then you rest in a position for no reason other than that you are just there. If someone comes along and says Goddidit you have no reason to disbelieve them so you should immediately become a theist. If the Goddidit, (a push), is not sufficient to move you from your position then it must be that something resists the force. Something. And it doesn't matter what that something is. Something has resisted. You have a reason not to move. Insufficent evidence, science explains it...whatever. It matters not.


"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by purpledawn, posted 08-26-2005 3:46 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by purpledawn, posted 08-26-2005 6:19 PM iano has not yet responded
 Message 276 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-27-2005 2:46 AM iano has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1745 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 274 of 329 (237510)
08-26-2005 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by iano
08-26-2005 5:24 PM


Re: Summary on topic
quote:
Told maybe, showed definitely not.
Since I am accumulating an excess of temperatue beneath my circular, tight-fitting clothing component and you are definitely projecting short, loud noices erroneously toward the top of an arboreal plant; I state again that you have not clearly shown that my statements and support in Message 248 are wrong, and have shown no support for your statements.

Obviously continuing this discussion with you is like sending dense shelly concretions throught the air to fall in front of stout-bodied, artiodactyl creatures; so I will slay a brace of avian creatures with just a single petrous conglomeration by saying again that you do not debate honorably and my argument stands as is.

Atheism is not a belief and no one has shown otherwise.

Good Day


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by iano, posted 08-26-2005 5:24 PM iano has not yet responded

DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 3042 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 275 of 329 (237614)
08-27-2005 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by iano
08-26-2005 5:08 PM


Re: The final countdown....
iano writes:

Whatever it is that happens to float your boat ds.

It's your assertion. Support it.

iano writes:

You don't believe in God. So what do you believe in then?

I believe that my motorcycle exists.

iano writes:

If its anything else then its 'something' and you have a religion.

I already knew that I was a motorcyclist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 08-26-2005 5:08 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 6:20 AM DominionSeraph has responded

DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 3042 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 276 of 329 (237617)
08-27-2005 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by iano
08-26-2005 5:24 PM


Re: Summary on topic
iano writes:

If you are not a naturalist or have no other reason to be an atheist then you rest in a position for no reason other than that you are just there. If someone comes along and says Goddidit you have no reason to disbelieve them so you should immediately become a theist. If the Goddidit, (a push), is not sufficient to move you from your position then it must be that something resists the force. Something.

Since the person asserting it cannot give a valid reason to believe it's true, the assertion has no weight. So, throwing it at someone won't move them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by iano, posted 08-26-2005 5:24 PM iano has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2005 6:33 AM DominionSeraph has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1745 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 277 of 329 (237658)
08-27-2005 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by DominionSeraph
08-27-2005 2:46 AM


Theism is not a Belief Either
Actually when you think about it, theism is not a belief (as in a religion) either. It is only a descriptive word for one who believes in god(s). Just as atheism describes one who has no theistic beliefs.

When you look at the etymology of atheism it has been around a lot longer than the use of the word "theism". My guess is that atheism was used as a derrogatory term in ancient days.

Just an interesting thought I had. Have a great day!


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-27-2005 2:46 AM DominionSeraph has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 6:26 AM purpledawn has responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13013
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 278 of 329 (238015)
08-28-2005 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by PurpleYouko
08-26-2005 10:05 AM


Re: Summary on topic
I believe that atheism is the natural state of humanity. Of course, I believe in many parables and attributes of the Bible, and I think that after the Fall, when humans realized that they were naked, is when they literally became unaware of God. Nobody is born with an awareness of god. the Bible tells us that Gods divine power and reality are evident to anyone who looks hard enough.

Most of us have never had a reason to look. Thus, we all are atheists at at least one point in our lives. Some of us logically7 elevate human wisdom to the origin of reason and explanation. I will agree that they are not "worshipping" human wisdom per se. They are fullfilling the scripture that ye shall be as gods. Reliance on human wisdom is a normal response.

Believers, (some, at least) have actually been touched and/or contacted by God. They can not prove it nor will anyone believe them, but that is the differentiation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-26-2005 10:05 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 6:36 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 287 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-29-2005 8:53 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 279 of 329 (238204)
08-29-2005 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by DominionSeraph
08-27-2005 2:09 AM


Re: The final countdown....
dominionseraph writes:

What you're using is:

____________ | _____ | a|--| \ | | AND )--|f b---|_____/
Wherein (b) is 'belief', and (f/a) is 'not objective/EI'. You presuppose that (f/a) is high, so as long as (b) remains high, (f/a) will too. The only way for it to possibly go low -- to allow for 'objective/not EI', is for (b) to go low, ie, nonbelief.
Now, EI fitting is no surprise -- you presuppose it, and fricken' have it shorted to the output!.

That neat logic diagram didn't copy 'n paste very well. Point being. You believe that logic is a way to arrive at objective truths. (I agree). Thus, you are not belief-less. Athiesm is not 'lack of belief in God' - period. It is 'lack of belief' + 'some other belief'.

The trickery of trying to say athiesm is not a position that "believes there is no God" but is a position the "lacks belief in God" is somewhat undermined by the fact the latter statement cannot be falsified or verified. Thus it is a statement about nothing at all.

Every athiest in fact believes something (at least every atheist on here does), but just not God. Athiesm is thus a belief system.


"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-27-2005 2:09 AM DominionSeraph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-29-2005 9:04 AM iano has responded
 Message 301 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-29-2005 6:48 PM iano has not yet responded
 Message 303 by LauraG, posted 08-29-2005 10:07 PM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 280 of 329 (238205)
08-29-2005 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by purpledawn
08-27-2005 6:33 AM


Re: Theism is not a Belief Either
purpledawn writes:

Just as atheism describes one who has no theistic beliefs.

athiesm describes someone who has no theistic beliefs but has athiestic beliefs. As thiest describes someone who has theistic belief and has no athiestic beliefs :)


"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2005 6:33 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2005 8:21 AM iano has responded
 Message 291 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-29-2005 9:20 AM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 281 of 329 (238207)
08-29-2005 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Thugpreacha
08-28-2005 3:36 PM


Re: Summary on topic
phatboy writes:

I believe that atheism is the natural state of humanity. Of course, I believe in many parables and attributes of the Bible, and I think that after the Fall, when humans realized that they were naked, is when they literally became unaware of God. Nobody is born with an awareness of god. the Bible tells us that Gods divine power and reality are evident to anyone who looks hard enough.

The Bible tells us (Romans 1 19-23) that everyone is aware of God but choses to deny the awareness. The Nile isn't just a river in Egypt...de-nial of God and doing everything in our power to figure out ways to deny him is the natural state of mankind. Take science for example. How many mis-appropriate what it does (reveals how Goddidit) and claim that Science disproves God (God of the ever-diminishing gaps). They turn a tool called Science into a belief system (Scientism) - (which is predicted in Romans 1: 22-23). Scientism is no different than Golden Calfism.

Except we've all got consciences. If we hadn't then a first year law student would be able to get us off on the Day of Judgement.


"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-28-2005 3:36 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2005 8:16 AM iano has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1745 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 282 of 329 (238217)
08-29-2005 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by iano
08-29-2005 6:36 AM


Re: Summary on topic
quote:
The Bible tells us (Romans 1 19-23) that everyone is aware of God but choses to deny the awareness.
Paul made this statement in a letter. He made no claim that God or Jesus gave him this information. What makes him an expert on whether everyone is aware of god or not? What makes him right?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 6:36 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 8:40 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1745 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 283 of 329 (238218)
08-29-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by iano
08-29-2005 6:26 AM


Re: Theism is not a Belief Either
quote:
athiesm describes someone who has no theistic beliefs but has athiestic beliefs.
What are atheistic beliefs?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 6:26 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by iano, posted 08-29-2005 8:27 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 284 of 329 (238219)
08-29-2005 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by purpledawn
08-29-2005 8:21 AM


Re: Theism is not a Belief Either
purpledawn writes:

What are atheistic beliefs?

Materialism, determinism, humanism, scientism - are a couple that spring to mind. I imagine any belief which commoents on the question of 'where it all came from' - but which exclude God as the reason.

(edit) An athiest will have one or other of these (or something along those lines) which gives them the basis for saying no God. Like I said earlier, an athiest doesn't make his statement in a vacuum. He had a reason for being able to state it.

In case you miss the post to dominionseraph above:

iano writes:

The trickery of trying to say athiesm is not a position that "believes there is no God" but is a position the "lacks belief in God" is somewhat undermined by the fact the latter statement cannot be falsified or verified. Thus it is a statement about nothing at all.

Every athiest in fact believes something (at least every atheist on here does), but just not God. Athiesm is thus a belief system.

This message has been edited by iano, 29-Aug-2005 01:43 PM

This message has been edited by iano, 29-Aug-2005 01:46 PM


"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2005 8:21 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-29-2005 7:52 PM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 285 of 329 (238220)
08-29-2005 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by purpledawn
08-29-2005 8:16 AM


Re: Summary on topic
purpledawn writes:

Paul made this statement in a letter. He made no claim that God or Jesus gave him this information. What makes him an expert on whether everyone is aware of god or not? What makes him right?

"All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking , correcting and training...." Paul told Timothy at 2 Timothy 3:16. The NT is considered to be scripture - incl Romans. If you feel it's not (and some would argue that it isn't), then fair enough - but whether it is or isn't is most definitely a topic for another thread.


"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2005 8:16 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

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