Atheism isn't a belief?

Athiests don't sit in a vacuum. Their NO GOD isn' arrived at in a vacuum - much as many would like to argue that it is. If NO GOD then I ask why? Lets deal with you again. What did you say again was your means of arrival at this conclusion. Do you remember the push factors at all? The 'no objective evidence' and 'the push of science' if I remember correctly. No vacuum PY, No vacuum.And I can't see how you can say anything either way about babies either. It has indeed. And I've yet to hear an atheist say they arrived at the conclusion with no push in the direction. That they haven't formed the conclusion by a pull/push from something else. No vacuums mentioned yet. Except theoretically. But vacuum = a-anything. And I've yet to meet one of those here. The rationale has been remarkably consistant throughout: "No objective evidence for God" (push) and "Objective evidence for something else". (pull) I'm sorry your frustrated. Don't think that I haven't been a bit too at times. This has been a long haul for everyone. Please remember though that I have largely been on my own here and have had plenty come at me from you, ds, pd,cp,pe,omiv. I'm not looking for sympathy but do grant me a little slack will you"One central feature".... you pose a causeless position. I'm afraid that everything in the world has been shown to have a prior cause PY. So much so that I have to take this position with a pinch of salt. Nothing happens for no reason. Nothing. You yourself mentioned push factors earlier. I can't just let you retract them because it's convenient for you now. Remember, I helped you come up with a defintion of SA with it's push factors and all. You were happy with that definition. Now we've come a full circle.

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

Whatever it is that happens to float your boat ds. You don't believe in God. So what do you believe in then? If it's nothing then you are a-anything not a-theist. If its anything else then its 'something' and you have a religion. It matters little what it is so long as it keeps on meeting your needs.

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

Told maybe, showed definitely not. If you are a naturalist then you have a basis, a reason for atheism. Whether you started there or were pulled there matters not. You have a reason for atheism. A somethingIf you are not a naturalist or have no other reason to be an atheist then you rest in a position for no reason other than that you are just there. If someone comes along and says Goddidit you have no reason to disbelieve them so you should immediately become a theist. If the Goddidit, (a push), is not sufficient to move you from your position then it must be that something resists the force. Something. And it doesn't matter what that something is. Something has resisted. You have a reason not to move. Insufficent evidence, science explains it...whatever. It matters not.

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

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Told maybe, showed definitely not.

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Since I am accumulating an excess of temperatue beneath my circular, tight-fitting clothing component and you are definitely projecting short, loud noices erroneously toward the top of an arboreal plant; I state again that you have not clearly shown that my statements and support in Message 248 are wrong, and have shown no support for your statements.Obviously continuing this discussion with you is like sending dense shelly concretions throught the air to fall in front of stout-bodied, artiodactyl creatures; so I will slay a brace of avian creatures with just a single petrous conglomeration by saying again that you do not debate honorably and my argument stands as is.Atheism is not a belief and no one has shown otherwise.Good Day

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

It's your assertion. Support it. I believe that my motorcycle exists. I already knew that I was a motorcyclist.

Since the person asserting it cannot give a valid reason to believe it's true, the assertion has no weight. So, throwing it at someone won't move them.

Actually when you think about it, theism is not a belief (as in a religion) either. It is only a descriptive word for one who believes in god(s). Just as atheism describes one who has no theistic beliefs.When you look at the etymology of atheism it has been around a lot longer than the use of the word "theism". My guess is that atheism was used as a derrogatory term in ancient days.Just an interesting thought I had. Have a great day!

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

I believe that atheism is the natural state of humanity. Of course, I believe in many parables and attributes of the Bible, and I think that after the Fall, when humans realized that they were naked, is when they literally became unaware of God. Nobody is born with an awareness of god. the Bible tells us that Gods divine power and reality are evident to anyone who looks hard enough.Most of us have never had a reason to look. Thus, we all are atheists at at least one point in our lives. Some of us logically7 elevate human wisdom to the origin of reason and explanation. I will agree that they are not "worshipping" human wisdom per se. They are fullfilling the scripture that ye shall be as gods. Reliance on human wisdom is a normal response.Believers, (some, at least) have actually been touched and/or contacted by God. They can not prove it nor will anyone believe them, but that is the differentiation.

That neat logic diagram didn't copy 'n paste very well. Point being. You believe that logic is a way to arrive at objective truths. (I agree). Thus, you are not belief-less. Athiesm is not 'lack of belief in God' - period. It is 'lack of belief' + 'some other belief'.The trickery of trying to say athiesm is not a position that "believes there is no God" but is a position the "lacks belief in God" is somewhat undermined by the fact the latter statement cannot be falsified or verified. Thus it is a statement about nothing at all.Every athiest in fact believes something (at least every atheist on here does), but just not God. Athiesm is thus a belief system.

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

athiesm describes someone who has no theistic beliefs but has athiestic beliefs. As thiest describes someone who has theistic belief and has no athiestic beliefs

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

The Bible tells us (Romans 1 19-23) that everyone is aware of God but choses to deny the awareness. The Nile isn't just a river in Egypt...de-nial of God and doing everything in our power to figure out ways to deny him is the natural state of mankind. Take science for example. How many mis-appropriate what it does (reveals how Goddidit) and claim that Science disproves God (God of the ever-diminishing gaps). They turn a tool called Science into a belief system (Scientism) - (which is predicted in Romans 1: 22-23). Scientism is no different than Golden Calfism.Except we've all got consciences. If we hadn't then a first year law student would be able to get us off on the Day of Judgement.

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

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The Bible tells us (Romans 1 19-23) that everyone is aware of God but choses to deny the awareness.

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Paul made this statement in a letter. He made no claim that God or Jesus gave him this information. What makes him an expert on whether everyone is aware of god or not? What makes him right?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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athiesm describes someone who has no theistic beliefs but has athiestic beliefs.

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What are atheistic beliefs?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Materialism, determinism, humanism, scientism - are a couple that spring to mind. I imagine any belief which commoents on the question of 'where it all came from' - but which exclude God as the reason.(edit) An athiest will have one or other of these (or something along those lines) which gives them the basis for saying no God. Like I said earlier, an athiest doesn't make his statement in a vacuum. He had a reason for being able to state it.In case you miss the post to dominionseraph above: This message has been edited by iano, 29-Aug-2005 01:43 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 29-Aug-2005 01:46 PM

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

"All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking , correcting and training...." Paul told Timothy at 2 Timothy 3:16. The NT is considered to be scripture - incl Romans. If you feel it's not (and some would argue that it isn't), then fair enough - but whether it is or isn't is most definitely a topic for another thread.

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14