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Author Topic:   How Likely Is It Jesus' Got Married
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6026
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 104 of 109 (345739)
09-01-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Nighttrain
09-01-2006 9:24 AM


Re: Where`s the gossip?
Near to a thousand, I said. The Qumran Scrolls. Odd that a great scholar like yourself hasn`t heard of them?

Hmmm.... Well, lets see. The premise of the inquiry was that certain documents bring Jesus' single-life into question. The Dead Sea Scrolls has nothing to do with the NT, except to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the Tanakh was compiled long before New Testament writers walked the earth. The DSS only help to corroborate the account of Jesus as the Moshiac, not help to prove that He was ever married.

Jesus is regarded as having lived approximately 33 years. Apart from the infancy tales and three years preaching the message, we know next to nothing of the missing 30 years. No information of the teachers who taught him, no news of how he earned a crust, hell, we don`t even know whether his father deserted the family. He arrives full-blown, fully equipped for battle and his followers never asked a question?

Because its inconsequential. The entire point of Jesus was to pick up where Abraham left off when He almost sacrificed his own son. God stayed Abraham's hand and said that God would provide for Himself the perfect and acceptable sacrifice. The lamb caught in the thickets was a temporary covering for sins as were all animal sacrifices, but Jesus is the perfect propitiation of sin, the spotless Lamb of God. And because of His immolation, we who accept the offer, are free from wrath. Now, there is a bit of a problem here. David understood that Moshiac must come through his line, but at the same time, David knows that there is no one who is righteous, no, not even one. So who can carry this cup? Who can be both man and God? Jesus. Therefore, all this other stuff about the 'unaccounted for years' is inconsequential to His purpose. Would it be cool to find out about His younger days? Yes. But you have to understand that like the anti-christ, no one is going to know who that person is until he reveals his intent. Likewise, though I'm certain His own family knew there was something special about Jesus, no one knew that He was the Lamb of God, therefore, no one thought to make an accounting for His early life.

The water/wine, like the seven signs, may be peshers for all we know. Oh, I forgot, you don`t know anything about the Scrolls.

LOL! Show me where in the Dead Sea Scrolls that it speaks of Jesus' water to wine miracle. You are obviously very confused on what the Dead Sea Scrolls are. It sounds to me like you are speaking about the Gnostic texts, like the Nag Hammadi collection.

Nothing to do with the Nephilim. The heads of the faith, Peter to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles were supposedly the ones anointed by Jesus to lead the missions. Their deaths don`t have to make Acts. Surely followers were literate enough to describe the ends of their leaders. Where are the histories? No one said they wrote of their own deaths. Even if Moses is claimed to have done it. Christians were writing of less outstanding events soon after, but nothing of the end of their leaders, except wild unsubstantiated rumours? Even James gets a small mention.

I thought it was pretty common knowledege that Peter was reportedly crucified upside down and Paul was beheaded. These stories are of course challenged by the secular world, but surely you've heard of the stories. Its long been a Catholic postulate that they have historical documentation on these events. According to one of the larger Catholic website, NewAdvent words it in this way:

"Then Nero, having summoned Agrippa the propraetor, said to him: It is necessary that men introducing mischievous religious observances should die. Wherefore I order them to take iron clubs, and to be killed in the sea-fight. Agrippa the propraetor said: Most sacred emperor, what thou hast ordered is not fitting for these men,since Paul seems innocent beside Peter. Nero said: By what fate, then, shall they die? Agrippa answered and said: As seems to me, it is just that Paul's head should be cut off, and that Peter should be raised on a cross as the cause of the murder. Nero said: Thou hast most excellently judged.

Then both Peter and Paul were led away from the presence of Nero. And Paul was beheaded on the Ostesian road.

And Peter, having come to the cross, said: Since my Lord Jesus Christ, who came down from the heaven upon the earth, was raised upon the cross upright, and He has deigned to call to heaven me, who am of the earth, my cross ought to be fixed head downmost, so as to direct my feet towards heaven; for I am not worthy to be crucified like my Lord. Then, having reversed the cross, they nailed his feet up."

Aside from this, what manner of martyrdom is critical to the point?

The Flavian references have long been recognised as Christian interpolations, not surfacing until the time of Eusebius, 300 years later. Y`know Eusebius, who said it was o.k. to lie for his church.

LOL! The wroks of Flavius Josephus were Christian interpollations? That's new. I've heard the charge that anywhere Josephus mentioned Jesus that it was a Christian insertion, but now the entire works of Josephus was all a lie proagated by Eusebius. Please substantiate your claim.

Lucian of Samosata (c.120-180) was not a contempory of Jesus or the early church.

Is Thomas Jefferson a real figure in human history or fictious one? According to the latest possible placing of Lucian, 147 year difference separates Jesus and Lucian. But a 180 year disparity separates us from Thomas Jefferson, yet we know he existed. You seem to think that history only applies to those of us living now. Latly, my mention of Lucian was because he mentioned how Christians worship Christ.

Tacitus was not a contempory of Jesus or the early church. His Annals are dated c.115.

Same thing. That's 72 years of elapsed time. Are you telling me that Tacitus couldn't have possibly known whether or not Christians were being executed in Gladiator games under the reign of Nero? That's what the quote speaks about.

The only descriptions we have on that period are hearsay/secondhand by writers who never met the real Jesus, but related stories which contradict each other.

Secondhand stories? The gospels are secodhand stories?

The oddest thing I find about Paul`s writings, apart from the denigration of the Jerusalem elders, is the failure to give a description of Jesus. I can understand new converts in Jerusalem not asking the question as they MAY have seen Him preaching, but Gentiles in all of Paul`s journeys never pop the question 'What did He look like?'

What are you talking about? Jewish leaders never asked what He looked like? Please explain what you mean here.


“"All science, even the divine science, is a sublime detective story. Only it is not set to detect why a man is dead; but the darker secret of why he is alive." —G. K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Nighttrain, posted 09-01-2006 9:24 AM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Nighttrain, posted 09-01-2006 8:42 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6026
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 106 of 109 (346000)
09-02-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Nighttrain
09-01-2006 8:42 PM


Re: Where`s the gossip?
I feel like I`m back in kindergarten class. One step at a time.The point of the discussion is the presence or absence of documents relating to the period contemporaneous with the life of Jesus. O.k.?

We're dealing with whether or not Jesus being married in annotated in any ancient documents. There are none, least of all, the Dead Sea Scrolls as you suggested. So, I guess the thread is over since there is no reasonable justification to assume that Jesus was married in His physical body. But to be sure, Jesus is married spiritually, to His bride, the Church.


“"All science, even the divine science, is a sublime detective story. Only it is not set to detect why a man is dead; but the darker secret of why he is alive." —G. K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Nighttrain, posted 09-01-2006 8:42 PM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by kuresu, posted 09-03-2006 2:56 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 109 by Nighttrain, posted 09-04-2006 8:33 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6026
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 108 of 109 (346212)
09-03-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by kuresu
09-03-2006 2:56 AM


Re: Where`s the gossip?
Nightrain first uses the word Qumran Scrolls.
then goes on to describe an event, and says, "oh wait, you don't know the scrolls".

now then--were the scrolls he was referring to the Dead Sea or the Qumran? seeing as how he doesn't even mention Dead Sea in post 103, I'd bet on the scrolls referring to the Qumran ones.

Because the Dead Sea Scrolls come from Qumran. Those are the only scrolls found at the site. As well, its been hailed as the greatest archaelogical discovery of the 20th century. Obviously all the emphasis and significance is on the site. And if he didn't mean the DSS, then what scrolls of Qumran was he referring to that speak about Jesus being married? He obviously was confused about the DSS and the Gnostic gospels, which has recently included the book of Judas from some discovered scrolls coming from Egypt, I believe.


“"All science, even the divine science, is a sublime detective story. Only it is not set to detect why a man is dead; but the darker secret of why he is alive." —G. K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by kuresu, posted 09-03-2006 2:56 AM kuresu has not yet responded

  
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