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Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 136 of 161 (457416)
02-23-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by pelican
02-22-2008 7:14 PM


Re: Internal Energy
pelican writes:

The energy is in the form of beliefs, thoughts, emotions and actions. I believe the source/force is our whole consciousness within the individual.

That is not energy: that is you calling something that is not energy, energy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by pelican, posted 02-22-2008 7:14 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by pelican, posted 02-23-2008 10:50 PM Larni has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 137 of 161 (457536)
02-23-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Larni
02-23-2008 11:58 AM


Re: Internal Energy
I used to see these aspects of self as just a way of experiencing life, just who we are. No real meaning. However, I can personally testify all of my energies from this inside source of belief systems has created my life experiences. I have no doubt of this. The latest belief to crumble within me is the one of christianity.
I was raised a christian with christian morals and values which had the effect of me never being good enough and fear of not being good enough. The christian in me robbed me of my dreams and my life. Powerful? I would say so. Well, now I say to jesus "I was always good enough, you pillock". lol :) :)

paula writes:

OP I heard this saying recently :that religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell and spirituality is for those who have already been.

I am in the 2nd category.

Edited by pelican, : No reason given.

Edited by pelican, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Larni, posted 02-23-2008 11:58 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Larni, posted 02-24-2008 5:21 AM pelican has responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 138 of 161 (457563)
02-24-2008 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by pelican
01-17-2008 5:48 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
I don't believe I have a physical organ called hate!

Way to miss the point.

If you believe psychological is physical, there's no point, is there?

No point in what? Debating?

{ABE: I will read the rest of the thread and offer my commentary afterwards. I don't want to drag the thread back to a place where my comments don't evolve the discussion further.}

Edited by Jaderis, : No reason given.


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 5:48 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 139 of 161 (457564)
02-24-2008 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by pelican
02-23-2008 10:50 PM


Re: Internal Energy
That is a nice story but you are still very very wrong to call your internal motivations and drives energy.

Why don't you see that what you are calling energy is not energy but motivation derived from you current set of beliefs.

Just like my set of beliefs drives me to attain high qualifications in my field: it's not energy it's what I choose to do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by pelican, posted 02-23-2008 10:50 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 6:36 AM Larni has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 140 of 161 (457566)
02-24-2008 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Larni
02-24-2008 5:21 AM


Re: Internal Energy
The point of my story was to show how my ingrained beliefs shaped and or created my life experiences. Just using the one of christianity as an example, I emulated the persona of jesus and did not follow my dreams for myself. It was a powerful driving force that led me to lead a life I did not want.
Although this belief is not felt as an energy, it was certainly very powerful. This belief was instrumental in suppression of my own emotions that I now feel very strongly. I am experiencing feelings that I have never experienced before without the physical stimulation. These feelings I have now and the beliefs I have now are shaping and/or creating new experiences in my life. My concept is very simple, probably too simple to be taken seriously but I know it is true for me. I know we are all a product of our experiences as I was. I fell big time and am now a work in progress on building a new, original belief system that stands alone. regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Larni, posted 02-24-2008 5:21 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Larni, posted 02-24-2008 6:54 AM pelican has responded
 Message 143 by Granny Magda, posted 02-24-2008 7:18 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 141 of 161 (457568)
02-24-2008 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by pelican
02-24-2008 6:36 AM


Re: Internal Energy
As I said, great story.

But you must understand that all of that is not energy. It is what has happened to you to shape you beliefs, attititudes and motivations.

It has nothing to do with energy!

A motivation is not energy!

Your prior experience is not energy!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 6:36 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 7:34 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 142 of 161 (457570)
02-24-2008 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by pelican
01-17-2008 7:32 PM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
am referring to the emotions, not the physical reactions to them.

How are they differentiated?

The only reason I know that I feel hate towards someone is because of the physical reaction I get.

The only reason I know that I feel love towards someone is because of the physical reaction i get.

My "mind" might rationalize both of these emotions (as well as all of the others) and allow me to express them in words, but my body actually has a reaction (and cannot often be expressed in words).


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:32 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 7:54 AM Jaderis has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 143 of 161 (457572)
02-24-2008 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by pelican
02-24-2008 6:36 AM


Re: Internal Energy
The point of my story was to show how my ingrained beliefs shaped and or created my life experiences.

None of which has anything to do with energy or spirituality for that matter. You have allowed yourself to drift off into self-referential circular logic. In Message 137 you say;

However, I can personally testify all of my energies from this inside source of belief systems has created my life experiences.

So, to rephrase that into something resembling English, you know that these "energies" are true because you know that they are true. That is not much of a basis for anything except self-congratulatory waffle.
Energy is just a buzz-word when it is used as you use it. It's meaningless. It just makes your ideas sound flaky and you sound foolish.

My concept is very simple, probably too simple to be taken seriously

No, it is too vague and nonsensical to be taken seriously.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 6:36 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 144 of 161 (457577)
02-24-2008 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Larni
02-24-2008 6:54 AM


Re: Internal Energy
yes I understand what you are saying and I agree with your perception from your life experiences.

What I haven't said is that these beliefs were in my 'subconscious'. I had no awareness that these beliefs which formed my motivations/attitudes and ego. I was so engaged in the material/physical world and was 'being myself' I did not know they were even there.

About 10yrs ago, when 'being myself' no longer worked for me, I crashed. It is through this period of my life that I know I wasn't 'being me'. I was moulded into never being good enough because the bar of christianity was too high.

The energy behind those beliefs, emotions and thoughts had the power to change me and my life. I know I have the power to do it again i.e change me and change my life, but this time in full awareness and from the inside out.

Edited by pelican, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Larni, posted 02-24-2008 6:54 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 145 of 161 (457578)
02-24-2008 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Granny Magda
01-20-2008 10:15 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Granny writes:

GM's dictionary writes:

3. Inspiring awe and reverence; spiritual.

It's that last one that is the closest fit for what I am trying to describe. There is a problem for atheists in trying to communicate this feeling, because our culture surrounds it in religious or supernatural imagery and language. If it were just a question of trying to avoid religious words and phrases, I would not care. What makes me interested in this is the argument put forward by many theists, to the effect that atheism must be a barren and depressing world-view, lacking in wonder. I reject this idea. I think that atheists can and do experience a sense of the transcendent, a feeling of inspiration, awe and reverence. Unfortunately, i think that many words have picked up too much baggage for use in this context. "Spiritual" is a the prime example. It has become so associated with religion and especially the new age movement, that its use by an atheist has become confusing.

Exactly. I have tried to translate this wonder to theists many times, but have lacked the vocabulary to do so without letting their minds latch onto one loaded word.

I find it numinous that I am made of stars. I find it numinous that every one of my ancestors has "made it." I find it numinous that I am here with my consciousness typing my words to you. But, why would I give the credit to some being for which there is no evidence for?

It is numinous and awe inspiring, but it, also, just is. As the etching on the transformers of my childhood say "Pepper wuz here." What I do beyond that is up to me. And that is numinous.


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Granny Magda, posted 01-20-2008 10:15 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 146 of 161 (457580)
02-24-2008 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jaderis
02-24-2008 7:10 AM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
The only reason I know that I feel hate towards someone is because of the physical reaction I get.

my body actually has a reaction (and cannot often be expressed in words).

It is exactly this reaction that cannot be described in words that I am referring to. When I have this physical reaction I can name it anything I want but in truth, it is a sensation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 7:10 AM Jaderis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 8:54 AM pelican has responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 147 of 161 (457583)
02-24-2008 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by pelican
01-22-2008 7:33 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
I am not talking about improving oneself, but truly knowing self and being true to oneself. This is the spirituality to which I refer. Not the supernatural but the natural which is super.

Um..the what? How is that different from the "supernatural?"

Can you quantify the "natural" part of a person and then say that they have gone "super?"

Mandella said, "The problem isn't that we think too highly of ourselves but that we don't think highly enough."

I agree with Mandela, but possibly in a different way than he did (I don't know I haven't been able to ask him).

People have a problem with attributing their intelligence or their talent or their sense to themselves or sometimes even to their family or community. They instead attribute it to some invisible deity. They do not think highly of themselves (or those who have helped them). Or not "highly enough."

They think that they would not have been able to achieve what they did without divine interference. I like to chalk it up to human ingenuity. We can always do better. And we will.

We must think "highly" of ourselves.


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 7:33 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 10:15 AM Jaderis has responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 148 of 161 (457584)
02-24-2008 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by pelican
02-24-2008 7:54 AM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
It is exactly this reaction that cannot be described in words that I am referring to. When I have this physical reaction I can name it anything I want but in truth, it is a sensation.

But you tried to separate the emotional from the physical.

Just because you cannot describe the "sensation" in words does not mean that it is not a physical reaction.

We can name it anything we want to. We can even pretend it (our rational reaction to it) is not there, but the physical reaction is there. That is how we know what we are feeling "emotionally."

Otherwise, we are sociopaths, just going through the motions because we understand the actions and reasons behind the "emotion" but not actually feeling (physically) all of the reactions associated with the emotion.

There is a physical response to every emotion. They can be explained by science but they cannot be separated.

The problem with describing the emotion in words is not a problem of science, but of linguistics and individual talent.


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 7:54 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 10:22 AM Jaderis has responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 149 of 161 (457585)
02-24-2008 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by pelican
01-21-2008 12:19 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
I do believe there is a fundamental truth that we all can know and it will only concern the human race

Why will it only concern the human race?

What is so special about us?

When will we all know it?


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by pelican, posted 01-21-2008 12:19 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 9:38 AM Jaderis has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 150 of 161 (457588)
02-24-2008 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Jaderis
02-24-2008 9:00 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Why will it only concern the human race?

What is so special about us?

When will we all know it?

Because we have a consciousness.
Because we have a consciousness.
Not a clue because it depends on the individual. I believe some already know it and it has a ripple effect on the mass consciousness. We are far more connected than just physically and I am not speaking of anything supernatural, just natural that is super.
Take our imaginations as one example. Look at the creations from the collective imaginations. Is it possible that we can create from more than just the mind? Is our consciousness contained in only the mind? Is it possible that we create from pain, desire, hate, love, empathy, rejection, unworthiness etc.?
I know I have for sure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 9:00 AM Jaderis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 10:14 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
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