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Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 151 of 161 (457590)
02-24-2008 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by pelican
02-24-2008 9:38 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
who knows writes:

Jaderis writes:

Why will it only concern the human race?

What is so special about us?

When will we all know it?

Because we have a consciousness.
Because we have a consciousness.

Different from other beings' consciousness? How? How do you know?

Not a clue because it depends on the individual. I believe some already know it and it has a ripple effect on the mass consciousness.

Mass consciousness? What does that mean?

We are far more connected than just physically

Like culturally, maybe? Migration of ideas, maybe?

and I am not speaking of anything supernatural, just natural that is super.

I'm sorry, but what does that mean? It looks like nonsense to me.

Take our imaginations as one example.

As an example of what? Natural human imagination that is "super?"

Look at the creations from the collective imaginations.

You mean, "look what we can can accomplish by traveling and exchanging ideas?" Are you saying that if we all put our minds together all at once we can create some kind of super-duper creative machine? Awesome.

Is it possible that we can create from more than just the mind? Is our consciousness contained in only the mind?

What, exactly, is "more than just the mind?" Why qualify "the mind" with "just?" Is your mind somehow not enough? I actually like my mind. What about you?

Are you stuck on the whole "we only use 10% of our brains" thing?

How do you propose that we use more? And what do we use it for? To feel more "spiritual" or to resolve unanswered scientific questions? Or to control our internal organs better? Or maybe to live longer?

Is it possible that we create from pain, desire, hate, love, empathy, rejection, unworthiness etc.?

Um...yeah. But where do these things come from except from within ourselves? Are these things that you list objects that exist outside ourselves that we have to find?

I know I have for sure.

Congratulations. You are human.


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 9:38 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 152 of 161 (457591)
02-24-2008 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Jaderis
02-24-2008 8:26 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Um..the what? How is that different from the "supernatural?"

Can you quantify the "natural" part of a person and then say that they have gone "super?"

Supernatural implies aliens and ghosts and telepathy and speaking with the dead. Things of that nature which take us away from the reality of humanity.

The only example at this point I can think of that is a super natural normal visible aspect of humanity is genius.

People have a problem with attributing their intelligence or their talent or their sense to themselves or sometimes even to their family or community. They instead attribute it to some invisible deity. They do not think highly of themselves (or those who have helped them). Or not "highly enough."

They think that they would not have been able to achieve what they did without divine interference. I like to chalk it up to human ingenuity. We can always do better. And we will.

We must think "highly" of ourselves.

I absolutely agree with every word but it must be based in reality. Have you seen the number of contestants on American idol who truly believe they have talent? It is of no use to believe you are what you are not. Belief in self of who you truly are, instead of who you want to be is where the change occurs to reach one's own ptotential.

Thanks for your interesting questions. I'm not really trying to prove my concept that I do believe is true for me, but rather discuss the possibilities in the aspects of self we have not investigated with any serious commitment because we take them for granted.

Although the concept seems quite simple it is not, because we are complex beings. We all have different belief systems, different life experiences, different identities but in this we are the same. We have thoughts, beliefs, emotions, imaginations, faith etc. which I believe are contained in the whole consciousness that we are only partly aware of.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 8:26 AM Jaderis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 11:11 AM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 153 of 161 (457593)
02-24-2008 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Jaderis
02-24-2008 8:54 AM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
Jadaris, are you looking at the emotional reaction caused by a physical action? If so, is it possible that an emotional action can cause a physical reaction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 8:54 AM Jaderis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Larni, posted 02-24-2008 10:40 AM pelican has responded
 Message 156 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 11:32 AM pelican has responded
 Message 157 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 11:50 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 154 of 161 (457594)
02-24-2008 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by pelican
02-24-2008 10:22 AM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
pelican writes:

If so, is it possible that an emotional action can cause a physical reaction?

Of course it can. What possible reason would you have to supect it could not?

It would still have nothing to do with energy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 10:22 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 6:49 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 155 of 161 (457597)
02-24-2008 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by pelican
02-24-2008 10:15 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Supernatural implies aliens and ghosts and telepathy and speaking with the dead. Things of that nature which take us away from the reality of humanity.

Sure it does, but it also implies invisible deities and anything that cannot be observed in the natural world.

The only example at this point I can think of that is a super natural normal visible aspect of humanity is genius.

But, "genius" can be observed as a natural phenomenon and can be applied across many fields and have many definitions.

How does "genius" apply to your definition of spirituality?

I absolutely agree with every word but it must be based in reality. Have you seen the number of contestants on American idol who truly believe they have talent? It is of no use to believe you are what you are not.

No use? According to who? Can one believe themselves to be something they are not and then discover through the "failure" process who they are? (p.s. i have only watched the "audition" episodes of the second season of American Idol)

Belief in self of who you truly are, instead of who you want to be is where the change occurs to reach one's own ptotential.

Cannot confidence in one's abilities come along with recognizing one's weaknesses? Wanting to be "something" will likely carry you through a long process of finding out what that "something" is not.

Thanks for your interesting questions.

You're welcome.

I'm not really trying to prove my concept that I do believe is true for me, but rather discuss the possibilities in the aspects of self we have not investigated with any serious commitment because we take them for granted.

It's "true" for you, so what's with the "we?"

Although the concept seems quite simple it is not, because we are complex beings. We all have different belief systems, different life experiences, different identities but in this we are the same. We have thoughts, beliefs, emotions, imaginations, faith etc. which I believe are contained in the whole consciousness that we are only partly aware of.

Right. We all have complex emotional lives. We know that.

What is the "whole consciousness?"

How do you know that we are only "partly aware" of it?


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 10:15 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 5:43 PM Jaderis has not yet responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 156 of 161 (457600)
02-24-2008 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by pelican
02-24-2008 10:22 AM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
Jadaris

Jaderis

are you looking at the emotional reaction caused by a physical action?

Like what? Someone hitting my mother? That causes both an emotional reaction and a physical one that are inseparable. I feel "anger." I know that I feel "angry" because my temperature rises and adrenaline is pumped into my system (to put it crudely). That is how I "know" that I am "angry." If I didn't have this physical reaction I would not be "angry."

If so, is it possible that an emotional action can cause a physical reaction?

What is an "emotional action?"

How do you separate your emotions from your physical, bodily reactions, including the involuntary ones?

I know I don't. I can control impulses that come about from strong emotions, but my body feels it just the same.

What is an "emotion" but your body telling you that you feel it?

It doesn't make any sense to have an "emotion" without being able to feel it.


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 10:22 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 6:19 PM Jaderis has not yet responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 157 of 161 (457602)
02-24-2008 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by pelican
02-24-2008 10:22 AM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
PS. Could you please answer the questions I asked of you?


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by pelican, posted 02-24-2008 10:22 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 158 of 161 (457653)
02-24-2008 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Jaderis
02-24-2008 11:11 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Sure it does, but it also implies invisible deities and anything that cannot be observed in the natural world.

We can be observed and we have invisible human aspects that are natural, so the human does not fit the category of supernatural.

How does "genius" apply to your definition of spirituality?

Originality.

No use? According to who? Can one believe themselves to be something they are not and then discover through the "failure" process who they are? (p.s. i have only watched the "audition" episodes of the second season of American Idol)

Yes of course, failure is a big part of growth but to fail at something over and over and never change or find one's own dreams is soul destroying. It's happening with many of our younger adults. The suicide rates are climbing.

Right. We all have complex emotional lives. We know that.

What is the "whole consciousness?"

How do you know that we are only "partly aware" of it?

Just imagine the internet holds everything we know. All the information known to humanity is on the net. I would liken that to the whole consciousness. We can only access small parts of it at any one time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 11:11 AM Jaderis has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 159 of 161 (457660)
02-24-2008 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Jaderis
02-24-2008 11:32 AM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
Like what? Someone hitting my mother? That causes both an emotional reaction and a physical one that are inseparable. I feel "anger." I know that I feel "angry" because my temperature rises and adrenaline is pumped into my system (to put it crudely). That is how I "know" that I am "angry." If I didn't have this physical reaction I would not be "angry."

What if your mother had hit first out of anger? Would you have the same reaction? I wonder how aware you really are of your reactions in the moment? I wonder if you have any control of your reactions in the moment?

What is an "emotional action?"

How do you separate your emotions from your physical, bodily reactions, including the involuntary ones?

When you feel love, is it a reaction or an action? In my expereience the feeling of love comes from a thought and not from another's action, therefore it is seperate to physical action. If I speak of it I do not say I felt a physical sensation on the back of my neck, went weak at the knees and swooned. I would just say I love you.

I agree the physical sensation has to accompany an emotion but it is not THE emotion.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'involuntary ones'.

I know that I feel "angry" because my temperature rises and adrenaline is pumped into my system

Here you have described them seperately. Your anger is not caused by your temperature rising or the adrenalin rush. Those physical reactions could be caused by a number of things e.g. fear. How do you know it's anger? How do you know it is not a virus? Do you have more sensations than those?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Jaderis, posted 02-24-2008 11:32 AM Jaderis has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 160 of 161 (457666)
02-24-2008 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Larni
02-24-2008 10:40 AM


Re: Emotional energy v physical reaction
Hi Larni, you and I see it but I suspected Jaderis did not. I was trying to clarify his/her perception so as to get on the same page. It doesn't happen very often does it? :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Larni, posted 02-24-2008 10:40 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 161 (885962)
04-30-2021 8:52 AM


Topic Synopsis
I stumbled across this old topic and...well you know me.
The topic was started by an old member named Pelican(No Longer Active)
Topic Starter writes:

I heard this saying recently :that religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell and spirituality is for those who have already been.
I believe many percieve them to be the same. Personally I believe they are totally different just as the saying implies.
Religion is concerned with knowing god and the afterlife.
Spirituality is concerned with knowing self and this life.

Does religion stunt spiritual growth? Does spirituality promote growth? Or alternatively, have they absolutely no connection?

I am only going to focus on posts made(then) by current active members.

Larni writes:

I actually hate the word spiritual. It gets bandied about the place a great deal in the wrong context.
Spirituality implies some etheric 'spirit' that is somehow distinct from the physical world: much like religion implies some deity (in most cases) somehow distinct from the physical world.

Either way you cut it both invoke something distinct from the physical world.

Knowing yourself and the world has nothing to do with spirit; it is simply being self aware and having an ability to be mindful of your self and environment.
Neither spirituality or religiosity are required.


So I responded. And I think very similar if not approximately as I thought and believed then:
Phat in 2008 writes:

In my world of definitions, religion is mans set of rules and established dogma. Spirituality is the communion between God and man.
Knowing God helps us to understand ourselves.
Going to church only provides us with the dogma of religion.
Some folks believe that not everyone knows God, but that everyone knows about God. Others believe that God is in everyone and that through the process of getting to know ourselves, we find the inner peace that embodies Him. Dogma taught me that Jesus was/is the only way to God. Perhaps in seeking to know myself, I am also seeking to know Christ in me.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


  
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