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Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 76 of 161 (450684)
01-23-2008 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by nwr
01-22-2008 11:34 PM


Re: What is spirituality?
nwr writes:

I have been following this thread. It is now at 74 messages, but I still haven't a clue as to what "spirituality" means, if it even means anything at all.

I guess the whole point is to find a common meaning based in common sense and a bit if inspiration. I began with a statement I had read somewhere and thought it would make a good discussion. It certainly has but has gone off at tangents purely due to us being human. :)

Sprituality is seen as voodoo, supernatural, religious doctrine and non-existent.

I see spirituality as a transformation of self. Nothing more and nothing less. I have reached this conclusion through my own personal experiences, as does everyone else with theirs'.

I believe we have finished our physical evolution, i.e we will remain human beings. However,I believe there is another equally valid evolution occurring right now. I believe the spiritual evolution is the dawning of tranformation. This evolution is taking place within the consciousness and cannot be proved except by the results.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by nwr, posted 01-22-2008 11:34 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by nwr, posted 01-23-2008 8:20 AM pelican has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5698
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 77 of 161 (450685)
01-23-2008 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by pelican
01-23-2008 7:53 AM


Re: What is spirituality?
Sprituality is seen as voodoo, supernatural, religious doctrine and non-existent.

That sounds about right to me.

I see spirituality as a transformation of self. Nothing more and nothing less.

Education (self-education) is transformation of self.

I believe we have finished our physical evolution, i.e we will remain human beings.

I don't think we have gone extinct just yet :laugh:

However,I believe there is another equally valid evolution occurring right now. I believe the spiritual evolution is the dawning of tranformation. This evolution is taking place within the consciousness and cannot be proved except by the results.

Yet another post fails to answer "what is spirituality?"


What if you educated folk are too educated to understand some of us? - Heinrik

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 7:53 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 8:32 AM nwr has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 78 of 161 (450688)
01-23-2008 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Granny Magda
01-23-2008 2:40 AM


Re: Paradox
magda writes:

The above statements would make much more sense if you substituted the phrase "world-view" for "reality".

But magda, I don't mean a 'world view'. I mean reality which only becomes s reality when experienced. You can have a view but you cannot experience a view.

the point about the flat earth was that they had evidence that the ocean fell over the edge, and they could not see land, and believed they were the only inhabitants of the world. This belief affected whole civilizations. It was primitive thinking that caused them to experience something as true that actually was not.

Do you imagine we are no longer primitive and we stop here? Strongly held beliefs today can be blown out of the water tomorrow just as they were then. It is in challenging the beliefs we know to be true that will change the world. There is no point in challenging beliefs you believe to be false, is there?

My reasoning is to look at the global experiences and find the common denominator that links us all together in a spiritual reality. All I can find is our humanity. Us. Each one of us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2008 2:40 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2008 9:42 AM pelican has responded
 Message 84 by Larni, posted 01-23-2008 11:30 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 79 of 161 (450689)
01-23-2008 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by nwr
01-23-2008 8:20 AM


Re: What is spirituality?
What does education transform you into? And how can education have anything to do with a spiritual transformation, that is not on the curriculum?

I'm not speaking of changing what you know. I am speaking of changing who you are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by nwr, posted 01-23-2008 8:20 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by nwr, posted 01-23-2008 8:50 AM pelican has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 80 of 161 (450691)
01-23-2008 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by pelican
01-22-2008 3:41 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:

We, humanity as a whole, are everything to do with spirituality.

Says you: provide evidence for your assertion.

Heinrik writes:

Without us there is no spirituality.

Without us there is no vaguely defined mumbo jumbo some flakes call spirituality.

You appear to have no real reason to believe there is a 'spiritual' existence.

Care to provide one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 3:41 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 6:39 PM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 81 of 161 (450692)
01-23-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by pelican
01-22-2008 9:45 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Cut the martyr talk and respond to post 67.

Or don't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by pelican, posted 01-22-2008 9:45 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 6:53 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5698
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 82 of 161 (450693)
01-23-2008 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by pelican
01-23-2008 8:32 AM


Re: What is spirituality?
What does education transform you into?

Education changes one into a person who is more aware of and better understands the wonders of our world.

And how can education have anything to do with a spiritual transformation, that is not on the curriculum?

Since nobody has explained what "spiritual" is, I take that word to be meaningless. Thus I do not see any real question there - merely words in the syntactic form of a question.

Oh, and education can (and should) provide far more than what is on the curriculum.

I'm not speaking of changing what you know.

I don't buy into the philosophers' (and theologians') fairy tales, that knowedge is "what you know" (i.e. a bunch of facts). I fully grant that a bunch of facts is not particularly transforming. I see knowledge as structural - part of our makeup - and thus I see education as highly transforming.


What if you educated folk are too educated to understand some of us? - Heinrik

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 8:32 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 7:08 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 83 of 161 (450700)
01-23-2008 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by pelican
01-23-2008 8:24 AM


Re: Paradox
quote:
But magda, I don't mean a 'world view'. I mean reality which only becomes s reality when experienced.

Oh, so you mean a reality that doesn't exist.
quote:
You can have a view but you cannot experience a view.

I'm currently experiencing the view that you are wrong.
quote:
the point about the flat earth was that they had evidence that the ocean fell over the edge, and they could not see land, and believed they were the only inhabitants of the world.

I would love to see your evidence of the seas falling over the edge of the world, but this whole spiel about reality is irrelevant unless you can demonstrate what connection it has to spirituality.
quote:
It was primitive thinking that caused them to experience something as true that actually was not.

No, they experienced a spherical Earth. They interpreted that experience as being one of a flat Earth.
Please drop this rubbish about reality. I am sorry I ever asked. It appears to have no relevance whatever to spirituality and unless you can show that it does, I am loathe to continue this off-topic blather.
quote:
It is in challenging the beliefs we know to be true that will change the world. There is no point in challenging beliefs you believe to be false, is there?

So there is no point challenging fascism, racism or sexism? What codswallop. If you want to challenge an idea that is true, you might start by jumping off a cliff in order to challenge the belief in gravity, but I wouldn't recommend it.
quote:
My reasoning is to look at the global experiences and find the common denominator that links us all together in a spiritual reality. All I can find is our humanity. Us. Each one of us.

So the common link between humanity is that we are all human? Wow. Thanks for that priceless gem of reasoning. Your waffle is typical of kind of circular, meaningless, self-important, pseudo-profundity that I would expect from a sentence containing the phrase "spiritual reality". This is a perfect example of why I dislike the term. "Spiritual reality" my arse.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 8:24 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Larni, posted 01-23-2008 11:34 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded
 Message 90 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 7:42 PM Granny Magda has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 84 of 161 (450723)
01-23-2008 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by pelican
01-23-2008 8:24 AM


Re: Paradox
Heinrik writes:

My reasoning is to look at the global experiences and find the common denominator that links us all together in a spiritual reality. All I can find is our humanity. Us. Each one of us.

All you are saying here is that people share humanity. what has that go to so with 'spirituallywhichyoustillhavenotdefined'?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by pelican, posted 01-23-2008 8:24 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 85 of 161 (450724)
01-23-2008 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Granny Magda
01-23-2008 9:42 AM


Re: Paradox
Granny Magda writes:

"Spiritual reality" my arse.

:)

That made me smile.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2008 9:42 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2789 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 86 of 161 (450725)
01-23-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by nwr
01-22-2008 11:34 PM


Re: What is spirituality?
because it means different things to different people. to some, it is a more mystical or sensual version of a normal religion. to some, it's new-age hoodoo.

i think it's anything that looks outside the present experience. as far as i'm concerned, any abstract thought might qualify.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by nwr, posted 01-22-2008 11:34 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 87 of 161 (450779)
01-23-2008 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Larni
01-23-2008 8:41 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
larni writes:

Without us there is no vaguely defined mumbo jumbo some flakes call spirituality.

Without us there is no consciousness.

You appear to have no real reason to believe there is a 'spiritual' existence.

That is because I haven't given you one.

Edited by Heinrik, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Larni, posted 01-23-2008 8:41 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Larni, posted 01-24-2008 3:21 AM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 88 of 161 (450782)
01-23-2008 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Larni
01-23-2008 8:44 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
larni writes:

Cut the martyr talk and respond to post 67.
Or don't.

You see larni, when you make snide comments and add a few insults, I don't believe you want to know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Larni, posted 01-23-2008 8:44 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 89 of 161 (450784)
01-23-2008 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by nwr
01-23-2008 8:50 AM


Re: What is spirituality?
It is terribly difficult to bring into one's awareness something that has not been experienced and is already believed to be something else.

It requires a shift in perception and yours is a physical world only. I learned everything I needed to know of the physical world and it wasn't enough. There was and is no meaning to our existence.

In my endevours to explain a new phylosophy, never once have I included the 'supernatural'. My definition of spirituality is based in the reality we live in now. I would term it 'down to earth' spirituality. However, whilst all the misconceptions you hold on to, for grim death, are actually blocking you from expanding your awareness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by nwr, posted 01-23-2008 8:50 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Woodsy, posted 01-24-2008 7:03 AM pelican has responded
 Message 96 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 3:52 PM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 90 of 161 (450789)
01-23-2008 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Granny Magda
01-23-2008 9:42 AM


Re: Paradox
granny magda writes:

I am loathe to continue this off-topic blather.: you might start by jumping off a cliff in order to challenge the belief in gravity, but I wouldn't recommend it : Your waffle is typical of kind of circular, meaningless, self-important, pseudo-profundity that I would expect from a sentence containing the phrase "spiritual reality". This is a perfect example of why I dislike the term. "Spiritual reality" my arse.

Well thanks for explaining that to me. I understand much more your point of view. Which is......................................????


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2008 9:42 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Granny Magda, posted 01-24-2008 9:00 AM pelican has responded

  
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