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Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 121 of 161 (451971)
01-29-2008 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Stile
01-29-2008 10:11 AM


Re: So, again, what is it?
You're missing my point. I'm not talking about a meaning in spirituality either. I'm talking about a meaning in the physical world.

Sorry Stile, I know you were not talking about a spiritual meaning. I was saying that because I do believe there is a spiritual meaning to life and I didn't want to be misunderstood as has happened again.

I'm saying there certainly is a physical meaning to our existance, it's just not provided to us by the physical world itself.

What 'physical meaning to our existence' do you mean? How come it is not provided to us?

Are you able to provide one? What is it?

I believe in a spirituality that isn't in a supernatural form and neither is it solid. It is an energy form that we cannot detect in a physical form, although we have produced this energy by splitting the atom. It is an energy that creates and permeates all living things. It can become any form, including mass (E=MC2) when the conditions of the experiment are met. The connection to this energy is "spirituality"

I don't understand what E=MC2 has to do with it, but if you meant you're preparing a new thread to discuss all the questions I've asked (along with everyone elses), then I'll wait for that.

Another misunderstanding here. The topic is about MISCONCEPTIONS and you have no need to wait. regards


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 10:11 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 12:56 PM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 122 of 161 (451980)
01-29-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Granny Magda
01-29-2008 10:13 AM


Re: Still No Useful Definition of Spirituality
Until then, I think it is just more woo-woo.

Magda, please don't start that again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Granny Magda, posted 01-29-2008 10:13 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Granny Magda, posted 01-30-2008 11:14 AM pelican has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 123 of 161 (451985)
01-29-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by pelican
01-29-2008 9:26 AM


Re: Still No Useful Definition of Spirituality
Stpid double post.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 9:26 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 124 of 161 (451987)
01-29-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by pelican
01-29-2008 9:26 AM


Re: Still No Useful Definition of Spirituality
Heinrik writes:

So in my own words, my definition of 'spirituality' is a non-physical entity that is the energy which connects and permeates all living things.

I believe this energy is felt by us all, directed by us all and changes form as, and through us, individually and collectively.
If you could come up with a better less ambiguous title I would be glad to use it but I doubt I would inspire any interest. I have to work with what I've got.

Way to describe The Force, Heinrik.

Is this a better defintion?

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 9:26 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4036
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 125 of 161 (452037)
01-29-2008 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by pelican
01-29-2008 11:00 AM


Re: So, again, what is it?
Heinrik writes:

What 'physical meaning to our existence' do you mean? How come it is not provided to us?

By 'physical meaning to our existence', I mean pretty much any meaning we can come up with. For example "I want to have kids and teach them to be kind, gentle people" is a physical meaning to our existence. Or "I want to be the best ice-cream salesman in the country" is a physical meaning to our existence.

It's not provided to us because we make these meanings up ourselves. At least, I haven't heard of anything that provides these meanings.

I believe in a spirituality that isn't in a supernatural form and neither is it solid. It is an energy form that we cannot detect in a physical form, although we have produced this energy by splitting the atom.

But... all the energy we produced by splitting the atom is physical energy. What do you mean?

By "we cannot detect in a physical form", do you mean we just have no way to detect it right now? Or that it's impossible to ever detect? That is, is it something that is part of the physcial world, and we just don't know it yet, or is it something that will never, ever be physical in any way?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 11:00 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 8:23 PM Stile has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 126 of 161 (452246)
01-29-2008 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Stile
01-29-2008 12:56 PM


Re: So, again, what is it?
By 'physical meaning to our existence', I mean pretty much any meaning we can come up with. For example "I want to have kids and teach them to be kind, gentle people" is a physical meaning to our existence. Or "I want to be the best ice-cream salesman in the country" is a physical meaning to our existence.

Ah yes, Like a job, climbing mount everest, retirement at 50. Anything in the material world.

But... all the energy we produced by splitting the atom is physical energy. What do you mean?

Do you mean that this energy is a physical energy, in that it is measurable and quantifiable and identifiable? In this case it would have a specific name.

By "we cannot detect in a physical form", do you mean we just have no way to detect it right now? Or that it's impossible to ever detect? That is, is it something that is part of the physcial world, and we just don't know it yet, or is it something that will never, ever be physical in any way?

We know this energy is already there and yes, it is a part of the physical world that as yet we are only aware of in destructive form. Einstein's theory of everything was intended for the greater good but by using his theory in reverse, it became destructive. However that same energy is in all things appearing/contained in different life forms.
I believe we, as individuals and collectively, possess this energy. It is in connecting with this energy that will lift us to another realm. Hence, my definition of 'down to earth spirituality'.

I read somewhere that a master is not the one with all the answers but the one with all the questions. Thanks for your great questions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Stile, posted 01-29-2008 12:56 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Stile, posted 01-31-2008 9:10 AM pelican has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 127 of 161 (452434)
01-30-2008 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by pelican
01-29-2008 11:15 AM


Re: Still No Useful Definition of Spirituality
If you wish to avoid accusations of mysticism, then I suggest that you come out and explain exactly what this much-vaunted "energy" actually is. If you cannot demonstrate that it is real, then you are engaging in mysticism.
I agree with Larni, what you are describing is "The Force". It's just fiction, a fantasy idea that appeals to you.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 11:15 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by pelican, posted 01-30-2008 7:12 PM Granny Magda has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 128 of 161 (452585)
01-30-2008 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Granny Magda
01-30-2008 11:14 AM


Re: Still No Useful Definition of Spirituality
larni writes:

Can I refer you to your thread about how every one else is wrong about E=MC^2?

If you were just right you would shut the fuck up about that particualr issue but you go on and on and on.

Your comments here highlight the position of a hypocrit.

magda writes:

If you wish to avoid accusations of mysticism, then I suggest that you come out and explain exactly what this much-vaunted "energy" actually is. If you cannot demonstrate that it is real, then you are engaging in mysticism.
I agree with Larni, what you are describing is "The Force". It's just fiction, a fantasy idea that appeals to you.

Your preconceived notions about who I am and what I am saying coupled with your preconceived notions of the subject at hand are blocking my ideas before I begin. These make it terribly difficult for me to communicate with both of you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Granny Magda, posted 01-30-2008 11:14 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Granny Magda, posted 01-31-2008 6:49 AM pelican has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 129 of 161 (452715)
01-31-2008 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by pelican
01-30-2008 7:12 PM


Re: Still No Useful Definition of Spirituality
Heinrik writes:

Your preconceived notions about who I am and what I am saying coupled with your preconceived notions of the subject at hand are blocking my ideas before I begin.

Please believe me Heinrik, I have no preconceptions about who you are or what you believe. I am more than happy to judge you (and all other members for that matter) solely on what you say. Any attempt to prejudge you would be fruitless anyway, because this is the internet. I have no idea who you are. You could be anybody.

Heinrik writes:

These make it terribly difficult for me to communicate with both of you.

The only thing that makes it difficult for you to put your ideas forward is that others have expressed disagreement with them. This is a debate board. You must expect disagreement.
I am inviting you to explain your ideas. You say that spirituality is an all-pervasive life energy of some sort. I am asking you to point to this energy and show me that it really exists. Until you can do that, you leave yourself open to the accusation that your definition of spirit describes nothing at all.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by pelican, posted 01-30-2008 7:12 PM pelican has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4036
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 130 of 161 (452742)
01-31-2008 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by pelican
01-29-2008 8:23 PM


Internal Energy
Heinrik writes:

Ah yes, Like a job, climbing mount everest, retirement at 50. Anything in the material world.

Can you identify any meaning/purpose that is not "in the material world"? I would even consider a purpose such as "to love as much as I can" or "to do what I can in order to gain access to the afterlife" as being in the material world.

Do you mean that this energy is a physical energy, in that it is measurable and quantifiable and identifiable? In this case it would have a specific name.

I'm afraid I don't have the education required to continue this line of thought where I'd like it to go. I really don't know too much about energy and relativity and mass and such. But, are you saying there's some energy in an atomic explosion that is not accounted for in some way? I was trying to say that atomic explosions occur exactly as we'ed expect them to. That is, all energy and mass components are accounted for (measured and quantifiable). Are you saying I'm wrong? If you are saying I'm wrong, can you explain to me what's being missed?

We know this energy is already there and yes, it is a part of the physical world that as yet we are only aware of in destructive form. Einstein's theory of everything was intended for the greater good but by using his theory in reverse, it became destructive. However that same energy is in all things appearing/contained in different life forms.

I agree, yes. We all have atoms, that could theoretically-possibly be split, and their energy could be released. Is that what you mean here?

I believe we, as individuals and collectively, possess this energy. It is in connecting with this energy that will lift us to another realm. Hence, my definition of 'down to earth spirituality'.

We possess this energy?

I agree to that in the sense of possess that the atoms with this energy are a part of our physical bodies.

I do not agree to that in the sense of possess that implys we somehow have control over this energy. What makes you think we can control the internal-energy inside the atoms of our bodies?

And then we jump to "this energy that will lift us to another realm". I'm not sure where that comes from. I mean, even if we assume we can tap into this energy somehow... what makes you think it will lift us to another realm? Why wouldn't it do something else, like maybe... give us the ability of telepathy, or maybe we'ed spontaneously explode in a mini-atom bomb. Why do you assume this energy (that I still don't even think we can get to) has a specific purpose, and that you know exactly what this purpose is?

I read somewhere that a master is not the one with all the answers but the one with all the questions. Thanks for your great questions.

No problem. I'm no master, I'm simply here to learn.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 8:23 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by pelican, posted 02-22-2008 7:14 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 131 of 161 (457346)
02-22-2008 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Stile
01-31-2008 9:10 AM


Re: Internal Energy
I'm afraid I don't have the education required to continue this line of thought where I'd like it to go. I really don't know too much about energy and relativity and mass and such. But, are you saying there's some energy in an atomic explosion that is not accounted for in some way? I was trying to say that atomic explosions occur exactly as we'ed expect them to. That is, all energy and mass components are accounted for (measured and quantifiable). Are you saying I'm wrong? If you are saying I'm wrong, can you explain to me what's being missed?

Hi Stile, I don't have the scientific background either and although we always associate energy with science, this energy I am referring to is within the human being. The energy is in the form of beliefs, thoughts, emotions and actions. I believe the source/force is our whole consciousness within the individual.

It is being investigated in some areas, e.g I saw an experiment connecting bad feelings to extreme behaviour in a documentary that I can't remember the name of. It was on discovery channel. It is coming to light that our beliefs, thoughts and feelings are creating out reality, both individually and collectively.

I know this from personal experience. regards


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Stile, posted 01-31-2008 9:10 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2008 12:07 AM pelican has responded
 Message 136 by Larni, posted 02-23-2008 11:58 AM pelican has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 132 of 161 (457377)
02-23-2008 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by pelican
02-22-2008 7:14 PM


Re: Internal Energy
pelican writes:

The energy is in the form of beliefs, thoughts, emotions and actions. I believe the source/force is our whole consciousness within the individual.

Obi-Wan Kenobi writes:

The Force is what gives a Jedi his powers. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.

As Larni said...


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by pelican, posted 02-22-2008 7:14 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by pelican, posted 02-23-2008 8:44 AM Granny Magda has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 133 of 161 (457405)
02-23-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Granny Magda
02-23-2008 12:07 AM


Re: Internal Energy
Can you tell me what a Jedi is? It's a genuine question as I truly do not know. I could make a guess but I could be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2008 12:07 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2008 10:37 AM pelican has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 134 of 161 (457412)
02-23-2008 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by pelican
02-23-2008 8:44 AM


Re: Internal Energy
Do you not have Google?
Jedi


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by pelican, posted 02-23-2008 8:44 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by pelican, posted 02-23-2008 11:15 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 135 of 161 (457414)
02-23-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Granny Magda
02-23-2008 10:37 AM


Re: Internal Energy
The Jedis are intelligent beings (that is, not necessarily humans) who have a special link to The Force, which is described as an energy field created by life, that casts a power over all matter and energy in the Universe (an entity similar to the Chinese concept of Qi, the "Great Whole of Life"). A Jedi is a regular organic being, for all the aspects of his/her existence, with the sole exception of this bond to The Force. This bond makes the being to have umprecedent talents above those given by his organic nature, talents that supersede those expected by the social and technical level of the Republic portrayed in the story. The Jedi is not a superbeing in the regular comprehension of the term (such as a superhero or a deity), but a person that can be compelled to get connected to a universal channel of energy and knowledge, from which he can get supernatural performance in movement, reflexes, strength, etc.; the Jedi can foresee near-ocurring events, so he can act, and react, not only on reflexes or instinct but on knowledge of the immediate future. Thus, the Jedi is not a superpowered being, but rather a "Force-driven" being.

The Force is also described as a "something" that, however powerful, cannot escape from a rule of the Universe: there is balance in everything. The Jedi Knights use the Force to perform good actions, but it eventually arises that they use the "good" version of the Force. For there is an "evil" version of it as well. Provided that the Force is created by life, it is heavily influenced by the emotions of the living beings, and the good or luminous side of the Force (mentioned plainly as The Force within the story) is fed by love, friendship, courage and the like; whereas the evil or Dark Side of the Force (mentioned as the latter) is fed by anger, fear, hatred and the like. The Jedi, being living beings, are affected by their negative emotions, and a substantial part of their training involves making them aware of their inner evil, in order to vanquish it.

Thanks. This is great stuff. Well, they do say science fiction comes true. I remember the first landing on the moon movie where the female wore high heels and the male was in a suit and tie. lol.

Maybe scientology is the true religion, going off the rumours I've heard of their god being a spaceman, of course. :) I don't believe in spacemen or women. I do believe there is no true religion and no true spirituality. All there is, is us! There is nothing else we can be certain of. Why do we search everywhere else? Isn't it possible that we are exactly as the jedi are described?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2008 10:37 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
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