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Author Topic:   The power of prayer: in action
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 271 of 304 (154743)
11-01-2004 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by lfen
11-01-2004 12:18 AM


Re: Serious Questions
I see your point, it is the way I thought for years.

But when I say changed from when you are born, it is in the sense, that we were created to be a certain way in Gods eyes. This includes your growth in this world. anything that takes you away from the goodness of God is going to alter your path.

Heck, anything that takes you away from goodness, even if you don't believe in God is not good for you, wouldn't you agree? That is proven in life, and not a mind game created by a church.

Its the devil convincing you that the church is trying to do those things to you. Irony at its best, kind of comical.

P.S. I am not saying all churches are good, because I believe that about 80% of them aren't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by lfen, posted 11-01-2004 12:18 AM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by lfen, posted 11-01-2004 1:28 AM riVeRraT has responded

lfen
Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 272 of 304 (154746)
11-01-2004 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by riVeRraT
11-01-2004 1:20 AM


Re: Serious Questions
we were created to be a certain way in Gods eyes. This includes your growth in this world. anything that takes you away from the goodness of God is going to alter your path.

If God created us to be a certain way how then could we be otherwise?
How we are must be how God wants us to be.
What is this "you" that can be away from the goodness of God?
How can anything take this path away from the path that God wants?

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 1:20 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 7:43 AM lfen has not yet responded
 Message 275 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 7:43 AM lfen has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1748 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 273 of 304 (154773)
11-01-2004 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by riVeRraT
10-31-2004 11:48 PM


Re: Serious Questions
quote:
An oath is like, when you break up with a guy, and you forgive him, but then you say to yourself, "I will never let a guy do that same thing to me again".
I try to stay away from absolutes. I'm not ammune to making the same mistake twice.

Let me show you a real life situation of mine and see if you can understand me a bit better.

My first husband was an alcoholic. We were married four years. I was in my early twenties and not really equiped to handle the situation. We went to clergy for help. The situation escalated after our daughter was born. I'm not an enabler, so I didn't hide his condition from his friends. It was mostly verbal abuse, but eventually he became dangerous to me and my daughter. That's when we left. (He didn't physically abuse me, but when someone starts punching holes in the wall next to my head, I don't hang around.) He had a problem. I understood that. He didn't want the responsibility of a wife a child. He couldn't handle it. We only aggravated his problem.

I don't look at that situation as something someone did to me. I made an unwise choice when I married him. That's where I make the mental note of the mistake I made and try not to make the same mistake again.

My current husband and I have been married for 20 years, he adopted my daughter and has been a wonderful father. We are a perfect fit.

Now yes my first marriage changed my behavior, I did some growing up. I learn from everything I do. I learned from my mistakes in that marriage, which makes me a better wife now.

I forgave my first husband. He sought help several years ago and has been sober since. He has never married again. His personality is not conducive to responsibility. He can take care of himself and that is it. He didn't intentionally become an alcoholic.

Like I said I don't live in my past. Life is too short.

Now I have a cousin who stole from my family. I have forgiven him, but I won't trust him again. That he would have to earn.

Just because I have forgiven him, doesn't mean I am blind to his nature.

When you leave your car unlocked and it gets stolen, you may forgive the thief, but hopefully you do start locking your cars so they don't get stolen again. Is that an oath? To me it is a lesson learned.

Our experiences in life will always change us. That's what makes us who we are. I wouldn't want to undo any of my experiences (well maybe the one where I was almost dead). If I did I wouldn't be the same person.

My experiences are what enable me to help others.
The woman dealing with an alcoholic husband.
The co-worker dealing with a dying father.
The young girl who talks of commiting suicide.
Dealing with a strong willed child.

I am a very positive and optimistic person, which considering what I have been through, people are amazed.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2004 11:48 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 8:29 AM purpledawn has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 274 of 304 (154776)
11-01-2004 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by lfen
11-01-2004 1:28 AM


Re: Serious Questions
removed by me

This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 11-01-2004 07:44 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by lfen, posted 11-01-2004 1:28 AM lfen has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 275 of 304 (154777)
11-01-2004 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by lfen
11-01-2004 1:28 AM


Re: Serious Questions
Hehe. It started with the tree of knowledge. God created us to be a certain way, that included having free will. Without being able to choose bad, we would have no free will.

This is obviously true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by lfen, posted 11-01-2004 1:28 AM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by lfen, posted 11-01-2004 10:37 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 276 of 304 (154794)
11-01-2004 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by purpledawn
11-01-2004 7:31 AM


Re: Serious Questions

Now I have a cousin who stole from my family. I have forgiven him, but I won't trust him again. That he would have to earn.

Just because I have forgiven him, doesn't mean I am blind to his nature.

Thats not an oath, thats beautiful stuff.

Isn't it amazing how we are so affected by what others do to us. It took me years to figure out where my own anger was coming from with my wife. Every single women in my life starting with my mother did things to hurt me. I so wanted for this not to be the case, that whenever my wife and I would start to argue, I would immediatly see the arguement through to the end in my own little head, and see her leaving me. that fustrated me, because it was the last thing I wanted. All I wanted was a happy family.

Once I realized that it what happened to me in my past that was stirring up my anger, I got a better hold on it. I still carry around a little bit of the hurt, but God has healed me for the most part. As issues come up, I give them to God. Reconizing the attacks is key to nipping in the bud before it gets out of hand in my mind.

Our minds are battle fields.

I have been, married now for 11 years, it wasn't until 3 years ago that I had figured that out. My wife was saved when she was 12, I don't know how she put up with me all these years, I guess its because I am generally a nice person. I got saved this year, and it solved even more issues between us, and we have never been happier.

This is a short overview, its hard to sum up a life story in a few words. But I know you'll understand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2004 7:31 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2004 12:45 PM riVeRraT has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 277 of 304 (154800)
11-01-2004 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 10:53 AM


quote:
Yes, I completely agree with you. That was such a good story.

Thanks. Sad but true.

quote:
I run into people like that all the time. But I ask myself, who are these people fooling.

THEMSELVES.

That's the point.

They are happier believing a lie than accepting the truth.

quote:
they want things to go their way so much that they just block out what you are saying as you say it, that they never hear it.

Bingo.

quote:
When you come to Christ, you tend to get rid of those traits and go in the opposite direction, and care about what people have to say, listen to them, become sensitive to their needs, and think before saying something that might hurt them.

But we are not talking about meeting people's emotional needs.

We are taliking about perception of reality.

quote:
Have you ever convinced yourself of a lie?

Sure, many times.

Everybody has.

I do let in evidence contrary to what I want to believe, however, so I have probably mostly corrected myself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 10:53 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 278 of 304 (154801)
11-01-2004 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Thugpreacha
10-29-2004 11:03 AM


Re: Absolutism and Moral Relativism
quote:
There will be times in your life, however, where logic and science will be unable to comfort you.

Of course. That's what my loved ones are for, and I for them.

quote:
What is the fascination with spirituality by otherwise unspiritual people?

I am interested in logic and reason, and how religious people marry the illogic of religion and faith with the need to be logical and rational in day to day life.

quote:
Are they fascinated by the bizarre reasoning and belief paradigms within believers?

Pretty much.

quote:
Did it ever occur to them that a world without a Deity ultimately deifies self?

Nah. I have never thought that way.

quote:
Human potential! You need not worship a "sky daddy" when you yourself shall someday become one!

We are just really, really intelligent adaptive apes. Not dieties. Special withing the Animal kingdom, yes, but not dieties.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-29-2004 11:03 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 279 of 304 (154804)
11-01-2004 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 11:09 AM


Thanks for quoting in your reply! It's MUCH easier.

Everyone who hears voices inside their head that tells them to do things is most likely a nut, yes.
Or self-deluded.

quote:
Even if it is all good? If it was bad, I would be afraid.

How do you know it's all good?

If you believe it is from God, it is, by definition, all "good", right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:09 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 5:28 PM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 280 of 304 (154807)
11-01-2004 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 11:17 AM


quote:
My question, is why is it that someone like you who is as smart as you, cannot see that it is not from God?

Which God/gods?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:17 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 5:31 PM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 281 of 304 (154809)
11-01-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by riVeRraT
10-29-2004 11:25 AM


quote:
I think there is way too much influence over a statistic like that, and you would never know the truth from that.

There is no influence. What could it be?

The rates of good, bad, and indifferent things happening to people are exactly the same if you are a believer or if you are not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by riVeRraT, posted 10-29-2004 11:25 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 5:50 PM nator has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 304 (154811)
11-01-2004 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by riVeRraT
10-30-2004 8:41 PM


I have prayed about what you have said to me. you bring up a lot of hard issues, and sometimes I do not have all the answers. But the truth of the matter is that God has put the responsibility in our hands.

Well, no offense, but I hope you can see how "I don't have an answer but still think I'm right" isn't really gonna fly with me.

You seem to be getting mad at single incidents and refuse to look at the bigger picture. There are many things that will not go our way.

Actually, things are going great for me. I've had fantastic week, all things told. It's other people that the really bad crap has happened to. And while they may take some comfort in the fact that good things happen elsewhere to other people, somehow I doubt it.

I mean... assuming they're alive to be able to take comfort in it, that is.

By you not believing in God, and in fact being angry about the whole thing, does not do a single bit of good.

Well, given that I don't believe in God, I'm really not angry at him. No moreso than the inch-tall baboons, that is.

Instead God needs people like you to help sort things out, instead of making them more confusing.

Hey, from where I'm sitting, it all looks pretty straightforward.

I don't think you are in any kind of position to judge God's priorities, as you do not know them fully.

See previous posts. If God does in fact exist, then I know what he hasn't done. And you've told me things he has done. If you're right, then that puts me in a pretty good place to judge his priorities.

The situation you are judging is your own personal priority. Just becasue you feel its bad that people are dying, they may actually be happier now going home to the father.

So once again, it was wrong of me to assume that Africans don't like to be killed.


"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2004 8:41 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 283 of 304 (154812)
11-01-2004 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by purpledawn
10-29-2004 7:58 PM


Re: The Process
You know what, and this is for you, even if it was fake, which I do not feel it is, it is such an awesome feeling, and so peaceful, so full of Love, so perfect, that I do not want to feel any other way.

quote:
It wasn't fake.

How do you know?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by purpledawn, posted 10-29-2004 7:58 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2004 2:37 PM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 284 of 304 (154813)
11-01-2004 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by purpledawn
10-29-2004 7:58 PM


Re: The Process
duplicate

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-01-2004 09:41 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by purpledawn, posted 10-29-2004 7:58 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 285 of 304 (154836)
11-01-2004 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by riVeRraT
11-01-2004 7:43 AM


Re: Serious Questions
This is obviously true

What appears obviously true is not thereby true particularly when we aren't talking about something we are immediately examining.

You have become convinced of one of many explanations that humans have come up with in the course of the developement of culture. What is "obvious" to me is that these are explanatory myths useful in living together in groups and dealing with the anxieties of the ego.

Culture is a very important aspect of human psychology but because our brains can use a variety of explanations and cultural practises it leads to differences of opinion and even cultural conflict.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 7:43 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-01-2004 11:28 AM lfen has responded

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