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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
iceage 
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Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 45 of 183 (409972)
07-12-2007 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 10:33 AM


Created to Worship
RR writes:
What spawns it, is based on my belief that we were all created to worship God, and that given Jesus's death and the deposit of the Holy Spirit, we all know God, regardless of our religion.
Your self-centric world view is showing. You say "Regardless or our religion" but in this same sentence you mention the trappings of your religion.
Are you saying that just prior to death a Muslim acknowledges Jesus? A Buddhist, Hindu?
In fact, maybe in this idea, you have single handedly demonstrated the faulty view of God as described in the bible. Follow this logic:
Christians worship Christ, Muslims worship Allah, Buddhist worship (sort of) Budda, Hindu's worship their gods. All these Godly seeking people seem to find the God of their upbringing in overwhelmingly large percentages. If what you say is true, you would find large defections from counterfeit religions to yours, since we are created to worship the God - of your selection.
If we are created to worship God, and the God of the Bible is the correct vision of God, and God actively works in the world, then why does the advancement of this meme... errr... religion require active humanly involvement? Why is the "great commision" even required.
Why when Christian missionaries first paddle their canoes to remote regions, are they not greeted by people who have found the God that corresponds to your view.
Actually when examining most early or privative cultures you find some rather distasteful common themes. Things like sacrifice (human and animal), strict male hierarchy, ethnocentric (ei God helps us kill our enemies), superstition (nonsensical control of the environment). These are the innate properties of religious expression. Do these spring from the "belief that we are all created to worship God"?
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 3:28 PM iceage has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 52 of 183 (410014)
07-12-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by anastasia
07-12-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Created to Worship
Anastasia writes:
In the same manner that evolution takes a life-time for complete understanding, or at least many years of familiarity, theological principles did not happen over night, and obviously, they sound just as retarded when you hear them, as macro evolution does to an outsider.
Whoaa right there... no comparison. I don't accept that evolutionary principles sound "retarded" to an outsider. Natural selection is such a simple and workable concept that T. Huxley once commented "How incredibly stupid, not to have thought of that myself"! I know for myself, after having the fundamentals explained, natural selection just made sense and provided a satisfying explanation of the workings of nature. I won't deny the details are complex, but the principle are simple and intuitive.
On the other hand try to explain things like:
  • Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself to save his creation from his own devices?
  • If Jesus was God who did he pray to?
  • If God created everything why did he create evil?
    Those are sure to bring a blank stare from an outsider.
    I have spent some time in the basement of Christian Theology and let me report that the plumbing is leaking and the patches, sometimes several on one leak, don't hold water.
    Anastasia writes:
    So, no Christian except someone who has not bothered to understand, will tell you that God, aka the Specific Christian God, aka Jesus, is appearing/revealing to Hindus and head-hunters, and being rejected.
    Let's let RiverRat or others respond to that.
    The bible clearly and unequivocally states that salvation is only through Jesus and only by being born again. If a good Muslim dies without accepting Jesus then they are hell bound per scripture. Hey what is that I just heard... oh ya a chorus's of Amens!
    However my point was slightly different and more mechanical.
    If we are created to worship God (as Riverrat believes), and the God described in the Bible is the one true vision of God, then there would be a detectable tendency for people when approaching God to align their worshiping impulses towards the core beliefs described in the Bible such as a triune Godhead, the necessity for water baptism, the nature of the Holy Spirit, or second coming. There would also be a steady defection from counterfeit religions. There would be a detectable core agreement on a set of Godly principles.
    Anastasia writes:
    We ARE saying that we believe everyone has a conscience and a soul which yearns to do right, and that by consciously choosing evil, we are figuratively rejecting God. Even the one we never heard of, and the even one we don't believe in.
    I like it, but it is not gospel!
    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by anastasia, posted 07-12-2007 5:39 PM anastasia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 64 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:25 AM iceage has replied
     Message 129 by anastasia, posted 07-16-2007 11:23 AM iceage has replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 6033 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 76 of 183 (410146)
    07-13-2007 12:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 64 by riVeRraT
    07-13-2007 10:25 AM


    Re: Created to Worship
    riverrat writes:
    I don't think it matters how you interpret it. I have met many atheist, and Muslims, who are more "Christian" than "christians."
    I am not really disagreeing with here.
    However, the biblical text does disagree with you and with clarity and force.
    I don't want to get into a scripture slinging contest, as that rarely clarifies anything due the inconsistency of the text, but you know the passages I am talking about.
    You cannot believe the above and that the Bible is God inspired, breathed and inerrant.
    RiverRat writes:
    What right to I or any other person on earth to say that anyone is going to hell?
    I have lost count how many times I have been told this by really good Christians. They often back it up with several poignant and on topic scriptural quotes.
    RiverRat writes:
    Why don't people get this stuff, it's so simple.
    Maybe because if one really believes in the Bible as God's text book they get confused because this "simple" message and others are ambiguous and contradicted.
    ice writes:
    If we are created to worship God (as Riverrat believes), and the God described in the Bible is the one true vision of God, then there would be a detectable tendency for people when approaching God to align their worshiping impulses towards the core beliefs described in the Bible such as a triune Godhead, the necessity for water baptism, the nature of the Holy Spirit, or second coming. There would also be a steady defection from counterfeit religions. There would be a detectable core agreement on a set of Godly principles.
    Riverrat writes:
    That's just not so.
    Jesus said the children will go to heaven, and they haven't a clue of any of that stuff.
    RiverRat, I said nothing about children going to heaven!
    BTW neither does the bible or Jesus. I thought this was so simple!
    Little babies, children and mentally incapacitated are born into sin! We are saddled with the Original Sin (well supported by biblical references) when we are born. This is gospel, you view is not. Oh the irony, Pastor Taz and myself have to preach the Gospel to the believers!
    Concerning my prior point (which really is simple), let me be more succinct
  • If we are created to worship God
    and
  • If God really is as described in Bible
    Then there would be objective evidence indicating that. There is not. Christianity (not the do good and go to heaven stuff you are preaching) is only advanced by the active work of missionaries and evangelists. There is no innate leaning towards the God the Bible.
    If all Bibles disappeared in an instant and memories were wiped clean humans would invent a new religion with different trappings and nuances that would not resemble Christianity or the OT blasphemies.
    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 11:12 AM iceage has replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 6033 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 118 of 183 (410485)
    07-15-2007 11:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 97 by riVeRraT
    07-14-2007 11:12 AM


    Created with Fear
    I keep making this point concerning this topic. If what you say is true 1) that we are designed by God to worship him and 2) the God of the Bible is the correct, why don't we see a significant number of end-of-life conversions "crying out to Jesus", from the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, pagans?
    The point is when people die the will seek the God of their tradition and background.
    You are really providing evidence that discounts a particular brand of religion.
    RR writes:
    Throughout our entire history, most of the human race has worshiped one thing or another. That is objective evidence that we are born with a desire to worship something.
    Or this desire is a human response to control nature and deal with the fear of death and human condition.
    RR writes:
    I do not know what atheists worship, but surely they search for joy somewhere. It is one your death bed, that you might question those ideas. When you are faced with non-existence.
    Question what ideas? Please be specific.
    It is beginning to look more and more like you believe that "atheists" do not accept God because they are searching for joy or because of some stubborn disobedience to "face the truth".
    RiverRat, most people are atheists, agnostics, etc because they cannot accept a storybook God and be honest with themselves. They refuse to take that "leap of faith" just to soothe the fear of dieing. The are unwilling to deceive themselves.
    The unintended consequence of this thread is that are underscoring that the underlying belief in God is fear based and not at all some innate spontaneously desire to worship God. If God does exist you would think that he would want us to be honest and courageous.
    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
    Edited by iceage, : Removed off-topic banter

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 11:12 AM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 12:20 PM iceage has replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 6033 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 120 of 183 (410508)
    07-15-2007 1:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
    07-15-2007 1:09 PM


    Re: Getting back on track
    NJ writes:
    Its supposed to bother you. That's kind of the point.
    As a selling feature of a meme you are right - it is effect and captures people's imagination. The biggest clue that Hell is a selling feature is that the concept morphed into its present state over ages. Hell is an evolved concept and has survival value. Even latter religion's recognized the value of the feature and borrowed the concept because it is an effective selling tool.
    quote:
    All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.
      —CS Lewis
    The ole self-choice requires the existence of eternal damnation theory. The logic does not follow.
    quote:
    The doctrine of hell is not just some dusty theological holdover from the Middle Ages. It has significant social consequences. Without a conviction of ultimate justice, people's sense of moral obligation dissolves, and social bonds are broke.
      —CS Lewis
    NJ quotes like this seriously harm CS Lewis credibility and yours for valuing sufficiently to quote it.
    Let look around for some data points. Take the Japanese and even parts of Europe. The power of the fear of hell is largely nonexistent - however for some reason the social, moral and societal bonds are stronger and more healthy oriented than in cultures were the fear of hell reigns supreme in peoples minds.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 1:09 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 1:51 PM iceage has replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 6033 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 124 of 183 (410520)
    07-15-2007 2:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 121 by Hyroglyphx
    07-15-2007 1:51 PM


    Re: Getting back on track
    NJ writes:
    You seem to have considerable knowledge on the topic. Would you be so kind to give the rest of us a lecture on the historicity of hell?
    Well yes this is really an salient point and certainly worthy of a topic. I am tempted to start here but would diverge away from RR's topic.
    However only a cursory knowledge of the Bible reveals the evolution of the concept of Hell as eternal punishment.
    iceage writes:
    NJ quotes like this seriously harm CS Lewis credibility and yours for valuing sufficiently to quote it.
    NJ writes:
    That's in the eye of the beholder my friend.
    Only if you eyes are wide shut. Empirical evidence suggest otherwise. From this article...
    http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
    There is this quote.
    quote:
    There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms
    Further you say
    iceage writes:
    Let look around for some data points. Take the Japanese and even parts of Europe. The power of the fear of hell is largely nonexistent
    NJ writes:
    Buddhism has seven circles of hell, one progressively worse than the other, dependent on the moral crime one commits.
    Japan and Europe are considerably more irreligious - regardless of which religion may be indigenous. Your point about Buddhism is irrelevant by the fact that Japan's largest and native religion is Shintoism and as far as I know, they don't make a post-death judgment - who knows there is not a canon, however it is certainly not emphasized. Hell is the focus Christian and Islamic religions.
    NJ writes:
    Social bonds in Japan are stronger and more healthy? By what measurement have you come to your deduction? Just like how you seem to not like the Lewis quote, both seem to be a matter of you expressing your opinion as if it were tangible evidence.
    Are these tangible evidence? homicide, rape, armed robbery, STD's, youth pregnancy, marital/divorce rates. See the above referenced paper "Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies"
    Or here is some summary data...
    A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE US AND OTHER RICH NATIONS
    Prisoners (per 1,000 people):
    United States 4.2
    United Kingdom 1.0
    Germany 0.8
    Denmark 0.7
    Sweden 0.6
    Japan 0.4
    Netherlands 0.4
    Murder rate (per 100,000 people):
    United States 8.40
    Canada 5.45
    Denmark 5.17
    Germany 4.20
    Norway 1.99
    United Kingdom 1.97
    Sweden 1.73
    Japan 1.20
    Finland 0.70
    Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people):
    United States 24.4
    Canada 2.6
    Sweden 2.3
    Norway 2.3
    Finland 2.3
    Denmark 2.2
    United Kingdom 2.0
    Netherlands 1.2
    Germany 0.9
    Japan 0.5
    Rape (per 100,000 people):
    United States 37.20
    Sweden 15.70
    Denmark 11.23
    Germany 8.60
    Norway 7.87
    United Kingdom 7.26
    Finland 7.20
    Japan 1.40
    Armed robbery (per 100,000 people)
    United States 221
    Canada 94
    United Kingdom 63
    Sweden 49
    Germany 47
    Denmark 44
    Finland 38
    Norway 22
    Japan 1
    OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
    Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
    AdminPD
    Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 1:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 6033 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 125 of 183 (410522)
    07-15-2007 3:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 122 by Hyroglyphx
    07-15-2007 2:30 PM


    Re: The Christian and the conundrum (For Riverrat, but all may respond)
    NJ you are seriously taking this topic off course. But some things seriously need to be rebutted.
    NJ writes:
    If God in His essence is love, then the absence of God must be the presence of hate and the complete absence of love. Those who have chosen this world, through the sacredness of their will, to reject His love, can confirm in eternal existance to live without His love.
    If you are referring to the God of the Bible - his essence is not Love. Ya there are a few warm passage about love in NT, but there are many many more passages where love is not the principle or practice.
    You say "those who have chosen this world...reject his love" and are hell bound.
    However, many people are hell bound per Christian doctrine have not "chosen this world". They are millions that believe in the religion of their tradition/culture and are much more pious and rejecting of the world than most Christians.
    Further there are more that just can't feed themselves a deceit to comfort their fears and uncertainties.
    It is a common and often repeated lie that all those who do not accept the Bible and Christ are purposefully disobedient and reject God. This is how the Christian mind can somehow accept Hell and still entertain this concept that God is Love, God is Agape. Christians often, as you have NJ, indicate that people have chosen this path, consciously and with a fair and unambiguous presentation of the evidence.
    The other lie, is that God gave us free-will so that we will worship and love him freely. RiverRat started this thread underscoring that people do not necessarily worship God out of free-will but because of overwhelming fear of death.
    OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
    Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
    AdminPD
    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
    Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 122 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 2:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 6033 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 137 of 183 (410645)
    07-16-2007 1:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 129 by anastasia
    07-16-2007 11:23 AM


    Re: Created to Worship
    Thanks for the response. I apologize for the OT comment on the other thread.
    I guess I got a bit twitchy by both yourself and RiverRat proclaiming that:
    ...duh! anyone who knows anything about Christianity knows not to take Salvation thru Jesus all that literally and that everyone has a conscience and soul and if they do right they will be saved.. it is all so simple...why can't you get it...
    When I know that opposite is true. The majority of Christian doctrine, and all very biblically supported, is that folks cannot be saved unless they hear and believe the gospel and accept Jesus. This is the motive behind the Great Commission.
    If the headhunter dies without hearing the Gospel and accepting Jesus, or if he did hear it and didn't fall on his face and accept this white man's religion his soul has purchased beach front property on the lake of fire.
    Back to the point of this thread. RiverRat believes we are created to Worship God - God being Jesus and God of the Bible - not God in the context of other traditions or cultures. So in the end he wonders if people will turn at the end-of-life to Jesus and God of the bible regardless of their prior religion. This is preposterous and and arrogant proclamation.
    You then seem to try to salvage his position by stating that sure we are created to worship this God but he allows for you just to be a good person and doing the best you can within your context.
    Ana writes:
    I will say that if a soul is made to know, love and serve God, then it may be at any moment that the mind chooses to listen to the spirit. Death beds are one moment, but you can't get water from a rock, nor Jesus from Allah.
    I don't even believe that this soft all-is-one philosophy is even Catholic doctrine and certainly not protestant doctrine. I am with you on this but the majority of Christian doctrine says this good Muslim goes to hell.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by anastasia, posted 07-16-2007 11:23 AM anastasia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 147 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:09 AM iceage has not replied
     Message 148 by anastasia, posted 07-17-2007 12:13 AM iceage has not replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 6033 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 138 of 183 (410647)
    07-16-2007 1:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 135 by riVeRraT
    07-16-2007 12:20 PM


    Re: Created with Fear
    Iceage writes:
    I keep making this point concerning this topic. If what you say is true 1) that we are designed by God to worship him and 2) the God of the Bible is the correct, why don't we see a significant number of end-of-life conversions "crying out to Jesus", from the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, pagans?
    RR writes:
    Do we really know what happens as people are dying?
    We do know that people don't typically trash their prior beliefs and religion and accept Jesus.
    RR writes:
    Or after they are dead?
    The bible says no-one enters heaven except through Jesus.
    So are you saying that after someone dies they get another chance?
    Any thoughts on this would be pure wild speculation. What does your Bible say?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 135 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 12:20 PM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 149 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:16 AM iceage has not replied

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