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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 141 of 183 (410663)
07-16-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 1:47 PM


Re: Some Observations
I generally don't have a problem with RR's sentiment of humbly sharing love and faith with others.
I think the problem though is that many percieve a lot of extra baggage along with that which seems contradictory to that same very sentiment.
From my perspective, you cannot sit there and talk to me about the loving compassion of Jesus and in a seperate instance explain how homosexuality and beastiality are moral equivalents. Well, I guess you CAN do it but not without seeming like a walking contradiction. As much as you and RR seem to TRY to seperate out the salvation message from your political views, you FAIL to do that almost at every single turn.
When I was growing up, I was taught that being a Christian meant you had a HUGE responsibility. You were in the lime light if you liked it or not. No matter how much you try to proclaim that you are still an imperfect human, to many, anything you do is a reflection on more than yourself. It is a reflection on the moral framework in which you chose to construct yourself.
Of couse, they meant it to apply to situations where you might be tempted to be "worldly" like casual drinking with non-christian friends. I took that message though to mean something very different. Some of the best conversations I have had with friends about Jesus were over a beer. One time was even at a strip club at a friend's bachelor party. I take that message to reflect more against being a hypocrite, being uppity, pretending that I know more than others, being hard nosed, being unwilling to learn. Basically all the things I see creationist and "conservative" posters do here all the time.
SO when it comes time for the non-religious folks on this board to look at the glossy back of their eyelids as they shut for the last time, try to think about what their perception of Christ is like. For all you know, their only exposure might have been YOUR attitudes on this very forum. Sure that might be their fault for not investigating it more, but in that last moment, rather than putting an outstretched hand towards the hope of God, they are far more likely to raise a fist in hopes that they would never be forced to spend an eternity with a God who produces such hatred and filth from so many of its followers.
We are a reflection of what is inside of us. "By their fruits" is an extrodinarily wise phrase that even non-christians can value.
By the way:
nj writes:
rr writes:
Nothing in the bible would indicate that believing in God, is going to make your physical life any better.
You're absolutely right about that.
Actually, the Bible claims that as a believer you should have super-powers.
mark 16:18 writes:
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 1:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 5:15 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 151 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:34 AM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 145 of 183 (410714)
07-16-2007 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 5:15 PM


Re: Some Observations
Love, it appears, is equivalent to letting me do whatever the hell I want.
Which has nothing to do with what I said at all. The problem is that you are conflating some sort of "sin" equivalence with actual equivalence.
Sure, via some metric that you can invent that might exist in the eyes of God, lying to your boss about your "business" lunch and raping an animal might be the same. But you seem to not be capable of grasping, at least in the spirit of this debate, that those two actions are ACTUALLY different to many people.
In all your crusading efforts to patronize moral relativism, you have done nothing more than create a dangerous generalization that I think paints the message of Jesus in a darker and incorrect light.
Secondly, if homosexuality is a moral equivalent to beastiality, then so is lying, fornication, etc. I don't have tiers of sin, and as far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't other. If its bad, its bad.
Which isn't what I was talking about at all. I realize that at its deepest essence you have absolutely no idea why such things upsets people. It is very unfortunate.
I'll just have to get you to teach me, sage.
There is no need for patronizing. If you feel I have done so to you, I am sorry. All I am trying to do is talk to you about how other might perceive your, I presume, well meaning attempts to witness.
I was casually drinking with non-Christian friends this Saturday.
Great! Some Christians would call that wrong though. So to a non-believer looking at both scenarios, can you at least fathom that they might think something bogus was going on? You might call Christians who preach that drinking of any kind is a sin too strict, they would call you back-sliding. Who is right?
You do realize, though, its not the beer. Its that someone is listening to you with expectations or judgement.
I assume you mean "without expectations"?
Yea, I totally agree. My point though is that I consider that a better reflective surface to show my faith than talking about pseudo-religious/political issues as an expression of my faith.
But perhaps you unintentionally lump all Christians into that pot.
Unfortunately, it is pervasive among people who claim to "Christ-like".
But just because someone holds to a conviction doesn't make them uppity. It means they hold to a conviction.
Which is fine as long as that conviction is consistent. That I think is one of the biggest problems that non-believes have. The only taste that some of them have in their mouth is hypocrisy. That is why I don't agree with RR's thesis.
The more timid, the more unsure they are, the more they are willing to compromise their core beliefs, the closer they are to your beliefs, the more they are in rightstanding with you.
I don't know what you mean about timid. Humble maybe. But not timid. That is certainly not how I would describe myself at least. I am not sure you are grasping what I am trying to say. Maybe I am not communicating properly.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 5:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 167 of 183 (410800)
07-17-2007 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by riVeRraT
07-17-2007 12:34 AM


Re: Some Observations
All I am talking about RR is how you (and NJ) seem to be percieved by other members of this forum.
I seem to recall even saying in the past that I think sometimes you get a bad rap. Occassionally the problem in communication seems to be about history between posters and not comitting to true understanding of what people are saying. You have certainly been the victim of that on occassion.
I think what you and NJ might be missing is that over and over again people are telling you exactly the kind of message they get from your participation. How many people does it take saying the same thing before you stop claiming that it is THEY who are not understanding your message? 2? 10? 100?
Maybe it is a problem of communication. In YOUR case I think that might be more likely. I don't think that is true for NJ. I honestly believe that deep down the things that NJ believes and chooses to express are damaging the reputation of the God he chooses to profess. Maybe even moreso than your run-of-the-mill creationists because many people simply write them off as deluded. NJ is lucid yet evasion and contradictions are apparent and often the norm.
Why? Also, what purpose does this server?
How mucher closer to understanding God is bery and dan after their interactions with NJ?
Too many people have "oaths" (stuck in their ways)on this board (and in life) and that is the basis for prejudice, and not being free. When true forgiveness takes place, then you are no longer bound by these oaths you have made about life. the bars can be lifted one by one, as God reveals tham to us.
So you say this and yet you proclaim in the OP that these same people will be open to God in those last moments on the brink amongst the fear of death? Impressions are built over a lifetime. This includes impressions of God.
You claim that everyone "knows" God's love. I am making the claim that whatever "know" may or may not be there is often destroyed by the time someone gets to the point of taking their last breath.
I guess, my last question is, did you actually hope to help people discover this lost knowledge or are you trying to make God seem silly and push people away? What effect do YOU think you have had thus far?
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 1:33 PM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 178 of 183 (410853)
07-17-2007 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by riVeRraT
07-17-2007 1:33 PM


Re: Some Observations
As long as there is a good percentage of people who do understand what I am saying, and address me accordingly, then I will say it is them.
That is a fair response. Are there a lot of people who come to you telling you that they understand what you are saying and those "other guys" are just being hard headed?
I do not read everything that NJ writes. But if what NJ writes is not truth, and beberry, and Dan have the gift from God of discernment. Then they are that much closer to finding God, the real God.
What if they aren't blessed with the power of "discernment"? Where does that leave NJ's efforts?
Oh, and it is not about what affect I have on people, but what affect we have on each other.
There is a contradiction in that statement. "You" happen to be a part of "we". I never said that other people are not also culpable. But it just seems to me that others take more care when they feel that they are not being understood or what effect their opinions might have.
Of course, that is just from my perspective which might be tainted by what I agree with. I am willing to entertain that. It just seems like your trying to build a bridge over a chasm and rather than finishing it, you throw up your hands and say, "the rest is up to God". Meanwhile, you cannot get mad at the people on the other side who refuse to cross until the large unfilled holes are dealt with.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 1:33 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 3:08 PM Jazzns has not replied

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