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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
Taz
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 183 (409822)
07-11-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 10:33 AM


riverrat writes:
Will you at that moment look to God, and maybe ask Him something?
You know, the one that doesn't exist?
This is a loaded question. No, scratch that, this question is full of it. Why, let me explain.
People say and do irrational things in certain situations that they would never say or do. Now, consider the following questions.
Under agonizing torture, would you then confess to the murder of little Ashley?
Well, I don't know who Ashley is or how she was murdered. But under agonizing torture, sure I'll confess to just about anything. A little while ago, I rented a Korean made movie about ancient times. At one scene, a person was accused of taking bribes (we as the viewers know this person was innocent). The investigation was composed entirely of torturing this person until he confessed. They beat the crap out of him until he was all bloodied. He used two big poles and pressed down on his knees until his knees literally popped out. They used a flat stick to beat his mouth until his teeth fell out. This went on for 6 days until he confessed and then died of pain. Sounds familiar, riverrat?
When it comes to it, people who are otherwise rational beings will become irrational and say or do just about anything.
If it requires one to be on one's death bed breathing one's last breaths to believe in god, then this god is a god of irrationality, a god of desperation, a god that takes advantage of people's weakest moments, a god not worth worshipping. Might as well systematically torture people until they believe in god, or profess to believe in god.
So, to directly answer your question, I don't know what I'm going to say or do when I'm on my death bed. But sure, if at that time believing in a god makes the whole experience a little better, why not?
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:03 PM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 183 (409824)
07-11-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
07-11-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
jar writes:
In addition, "we were all created to worship God" seems like a pretty small and worthless purpose that could only be the desire of a small and worthless god. If that actually is why people were created, why would anyone even care about such a picayune god?
I did see this comment by riverrat before he changed his OP. It reminds me of Homer Simpson.
This year's episode on Father's day comes to mind. The day before Father's day, Homer Simpson gathered up his kids and told them to go out and buy him presents because that day was "Father's Day Eve". Lisa then informed him that "dad, there's no such thing as Father's Day Eve." Homer became devastated by that little comment.
This whole thing was suppose to be funny, but I couldn't help but relate that little Simpson scene to our riverrat. Like Homer Simpson, riverrat needs to feel important being a father. He needs his children to look up to him and honor him. This yearn for attention from the ones he created is, I think, child-like... you know, like that child-like faith that so many pastors try to sell. The fact that riverrat thinks our purpose is to worship god tells me that riverrat himself needs to feel important to his kids so much that he thinks his kids' sole purpose is to honor him as their father.
But yes, I agree. This god of his is a very small god. A god that yearns for attention from his creation. A narcissistic god.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 07-11-2007 10:45 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by anastasia, posted 07-11-2007 5:39 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 22 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:09 PM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 28 of 183 (409858)
07-11-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 7:03 PM


riverrat writes:
See I really do not believe that someone could be atheist (although I may be wrong) at best, anyone with half a logical/scientific brain, should be agnostic.
Well, I consider the nonexistent of god in the same way of the nonexistent of the immaterial pink unicorn.
So tell me, riverrat, are you an agnostic when it comes to the immaterial pink unicorn? How about the invisible green goblin? How about the tooth fairy?
If you still think agnosticism is the "logical" choice in regard to all of these, then I guess I'm not logical.
Look, from the age of 20 or so to the first memories I have of my childhood, I'd talked to god everyday and heard/felt his responses everyday. Trust me on this. It took me about 20 years to finally realize that if god really exists, he'd care more about how I'd live my life and how I could help make this world better for everyone than if I'm on my knees talking in tongues or worry about other people's sex lives.
Let me remind you again that the vast majority of people that have voted in record numbers in opposition to basic human rights are the religious folks. Why is it do you think that the religious folks have always taken a stance against human rights? Everything from interracial marriage to women sufferage to basic civil rights to gay rights have always been high on the religious lists of things to oppose. Let me give you a brief summary of what I think is going on here.
The religious folks deep down inside are always afraid of the fire of eternal damnation. So, instead of trying to make this world a better place, they do everything they can to please their god. In the past, they tried human and animal sacrifice. Then they moved on to witch huntings. Now, they vote in record numbers to prevent people like gay people from being happy.
Again, if god really exists, he would worry a lot less about us believing or not believing in him and worry a lot more about how we are treating our fellow men. You know, those things we call kindness, tolerance, acceptance, honesty... the real moral issues.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 9:04 AM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 30 of 183 (409862)
07-11-2007 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 7:09 PM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
riverrat writes:
me writes:
But yes, I agree. This god of his is a very small god. A god that yearns for attention from his creation. A narcissistic god.
That assumption is incorrect.
How else would you describe a god that created a universe of trillions upon trillions of stars, a little blue planet inhabited by wonderful life, and billions upon billions of intelligent individuals for the sole purpose of worshipping him?
When my brother hid the eggs for his children to find during easter, he didn't do it so his children would get on their knees and say repeatedly what an awesome father they had for being able to hide the eggs. He did it to give his children a wonderful time at hunting out the hidden easter eggs.
I would describe a person who bore children for the sole pupose of them worshipping him a narcissist. If god exists and if he is what you make him out to be, then surely this god is narcissistic at best.
Added by edit.
PS Ever considered the idea that perhaps atheists like myself would consider for once the existence of the judeo-christian god if christian organizations begin to really support human rights rather than suppress them? The following picture really doesn't help christians convince me to consider the existence of the christian god. I'll tell you what. When I see better results from accepting Jesus Christ in the christians, I'll have a second thought on my atheism.
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:09 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 9:11 AM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 183 (409947)
07-12-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by riVeRraT
07-12-2007 9:11 AM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
riverrat writes:
When are you going to start understanding me a little better, you have me in this bracket or something, it's like you are prejudice against anyone who believes in God.
Well, I've been as frank as I can be. I don't think religion, or worshipping god, has made you a better person. Pardon the pun, but I think you've traded in your illegal drugs for the legal ones.
I'm sorry, I just don't think you're a good parent... or a community leader. I fear for the future of our society because you are a contributer. Between phat's war on other people's sex lives, nem_jug's continual comparason of gay people and animal, and your "hate the sin, love the sinner" BS, I haven't seen anything that would convince me that believing in god would make me a better person. I mean, come on, I'm the atheist here and you guys are the christians. You're suppose to be better than me, not the other way around. You're suppose to be the people who would fight for human rights and I'm suppose to be the bad guy who tries to take away human rights, not the other way around.
What I'm trying to say in too many words is if you really want atheists like me to consider the existence of god, you should look to yourself and your fellow christians and see what actions you can take or what deeds you can do to convince us that believing in a deity would make us better people. Instead, you are all preaching the same message of hate with different words. The difference between nem_jug's position and your own is almost the same as the difference between Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson. Fred Phelps calls for the extermination of gay people while Pat pretends to be more tolerant and only wanted to stigmatize them. Both are sending the same message using different words.
I'm really sorry, everytime I see one of you talk about god, I just can't get past all the BS that I see you guys do and say about other people who have never done you any harm.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 9:11 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 7:16 PM Taz has replied
 Message 79 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 1:11 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 127 by bob_gray, posted 07-15-2007 8:13 PM Taz has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 46 of 183 (409984)
07-12-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by iceage
07-12-2007 1:53 PM


Re: Created to Worship
iceage writes:
Your self-centric world view is showing.
I have talked to many christians about this particular issue. I asked them why would god would condemn those that never heard of him and thus had no way of knowing to worship god, and they told me that it clearly says in the bible that god always reveals himself to EVERYONE, even if you're a native in the deep jungles of the amazon or congo with absolutely no contact with the outside world. Therefore, those people are damned to hell because god has revealed himself to them in one way or other and they rejected him.
I don't have my bible at this moment, so I don't know where it says that.
It just boggles my mind that people actually believe this crap.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iceage, posted 07-12-2007 1:53 PM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by anastasia, posted 07-12-2007 5:39 PM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 48 of 183 (410003)
07-12-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by anastasia
07-12-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Created to Worship
You are forgetting something, ana. In fact, I finally abandoned christianity around the age of 20. I don't know about you, but there are real live christians out there that actually believe that no matter who you are or where you are, Jesus reveals himself to you at one time or other, and that if you reject him you go to hell. I can even remember someone making this argument at a school debate I went to.
You and iceage seem to have about as many objections to religion based on a false understanding of theology, as people do with that other word...teleology?
Well, for a starter, many christians would say that catholics aren't really christians. There is no such thing as a christian theology. Rather, there are many branches that believe in different things. Ice and I were referring specifically to the ones that actually honest to goodness believe in the BS.
So, no Christian except someone who has not bothered to understand, will tell you that God, aka the Specific Christian God, aka Jesus, is appearing/revealing to Hindus and head-hunters, and being rejected. We ARE saying that we believe everyone has a conscience and a soul which yearns to do right, and that by consciously choosing evil, we are figuratively rejecting God. Even the one we never heard of, and the even one we don't believe in.
Are you saying that Pat Robertson and the millions that follow him have not bothered to understand?
Added by edit.
I would not at any time obligate or desire that you be tricked by any of the 'BS', but you should at least know WHAT Christians are saying before you get mired into a pit where all you see is nonsense.
Then tell us how you would interpret riverrat's statement there. And by the way, these aren't nonsense. These sort of stuff are what causing millions and millions of Americans to go out and vote in record numbers on bullshit issues.
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by anastasia, posted 07-12-2007 5:39 PM anastasia has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 54 of 183 (410023)
07-12-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by riVeRraT
07-12-2007 7:16 PM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
riverrat writes:
You'll have to explain why any Christian is supposed to be better than anyone else
For a starter, christians have been saying they have the moral high ground for as long as anyone can remember.
and then you'll have to explain just how it is that you are better than any of us.
Um... I mind my own business when it comes to other people's private lives? Just this little fact is more than most christians can say about themselves.
It's simple then, stop looking to us to find God.
But that's just it. You know how many church signs I drive by each day? Especially during election times, you know how many bigotted church signs I see everyday?
Christianity is nowadays a force that is hard to ignore.
Thanks to God, that I am tolerant of gay marriage now.
I wonder... how many times a week do you remind people that even though you tolerate gay marriage you think homosexuality is a sin? Well... considering that it's their private lives... it's like saying you tolerate people having sex when the female is on top, but you think it's a sin. I know, you look to the bible as moral guideline and it told you so... not good enough for me!
Look, it's probably unfair that I'm picking on you like this, considering you seem to be more tolerant than most christians out there. I just want you to realize that everytime you try to get us (me) to believe in god, I just can't look past the fact that the evidence clearly shows that believing in god does nothing to make people more tolerant of their fellow men.
Unlike the atheists here who say the evidence (or lack thereof) made them doubt god's existence, I rejected god's existence because of moral issues. I tend to use the gay issue because it's one of the most talked about issues nowadays. But the truth is I see a whole array of limits on moral issues if I am to believe in god, and as far as I can see noone has yet to demonstrate that believing in god would make one being able to make better moral judgements. Among the people who hold conversations with god, the visible ones like Pat Robertson I wouldn't call someone who has a good moral grasp. And among the not so visible ones who number in millions who go out and vote with armageddon in mind I wouldn't call good moral folks either.
To get back to the original topic, don't look to us atheists about this god thing. If you want to impress us, look toward your own fellow christians and try to make some changes first. Demonstrate to us just how good christians can be. Demonstrate to us that there are actually honest to goodness benefits to believing in god, especially benefits that will help better our society.
God has met me where I am at. You might be past that point or whatever, but it seems to me, that you are filled with anger, and many more flaws, that all could use some working on.
I do admit to have certain anger in this issue. The difference between christians and me is I don't vote on my anger. I've told you about my prejudice against drug users and having children. Well, I don't talk about it much. And certainly, I don't go around telling people if this is sinful or that is sinful. I even believe that human life begins at the point of conception and that I feel a great sense of sadness toward the issue of abortion. But when I step outside to the real world, logic takes over and, while it pains me so, I'm pro-choice.
So, you can be assured that no matter how angry I am at christians, I will never ever support any legislation or any policy that would come close to prohibiting your right to worship. I personally think that the world would be a better place without religion, but I will never say or do anything to promote such an idea. And certainly, I don't go around telling children that religion is evil to counter you going around telling children homosexuality is sinful.
You can come down off your pedestal now, cause I am sick of looking up your skirt and seeing dirty underwear.
Hey, I change my underwear everyday.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 7:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 9:27 AM Taz has not replied

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