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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
anastasia
Member (Idle past 6071 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 12 of 183 (409840)
07-11-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
07-11-2007 2:21 PM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
Tazmanian Devil writes:
But yes, I agree. This god of his is a very small god. A god that yearns for attention from his creation. A narcissistic god.
I don't think that 'being created to worship' means that we feel God wants us to crawl on all fours singing hymans all day. It is not about our action, it is about God's action. We can glorify God by our very existence.
I know you won't like that comment, but fair is fair.
Does riverrat know that people sometimes stop believing on their death-beds?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 07-11-2007 2:21 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:11 PM anastasia has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 6071 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 32 of 183 (409866)
07-11-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 7:11 PM


Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
riVeRraT writes:
Well put, thank you.
Shame it wasn't well spelled. I will leave my mistake so you can laugh at me. I really don't beieve that there is any misplaced parental urge which makes us see our purpose as 'glorifying God'. It is in the Bible, and 'course, so are angels who DO worship non-stop in a much different way. If God wanted more of those, well, He could have made some.
I was going to say true, but are you sure you mean they just get angry at God?
Don't we all when we are tested with suffering?
I am going through it right now.
I am sorry for your suffering. The only thing I can say I am sure about is that human nature is extremely inconsistant. If people can reject God during life, why not at the end, when they feel like it hasn't been worth it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:11 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 9:37 AM anastasia has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 6071 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 47 of 183 (409999)
07-12-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Taz
07-12-2007 3:28 PM


Re: Created to Worship
Tazmanian Devil writes:
I have talked to many christians about this particular issue. I asked them why would god would condemn those that never heard of him and thus had no way of knowing to worship god, and they told me that it clearly says in the bible that god always reveals himself to EVERYONE, even if you're a native in the deep jungles of the amazon or congo with absolutely no contact with the outside world. Therefore, those people are damned to hell because god has revealed himself to them in one way or other and they rejected him.
You and iceage seem to have about as many objections to religion based on a false understanding of theology, as people do with that other word...teleology?
I would not at any time obligate or desire that you be tricked by any of the 'BS', but you should at least know WHAT Christians are saying before you get mired into a pit where all you see is nonsense. It's simply because you don't get it. In the same manner that evolution takes a life-time for complete understanding, or at least many years of familiarity, theological principles did not happen over night, and obviously, they sound just as retarded when you hear them, as macro evolution does to an outsider. You need to know why they are believed, and how they DO make sense to many rational people.
So, no Christian except someone who has not bothered to understand, will tell you that God, aka the Specific Christian God, aka Jesus, is appearing/revealing to Hindus and head-hunters, and being rejected. We ARE saying that we believe everyone has a conscience and a soul which yearns to do right, and that by consciously choosing evil, we are figuratively rejecting God. Even the one we never heard of, and the even one we don't believe in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 3:28 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 6:03 PM anastasia has not replied
 Message 52 by iceage, posted 07-12-2007 7:28 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 62 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:13 AM anastasia has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 6071 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 129 of 183 (410617)
07-16-2007 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iceage
07-12-2007 7:28 PM


Re: Created to Worship
iceage writes:
Whoaa right there... no comparison. I don't accept that evolutionary principles sound "retarded" to an outsider. Natural selection is such a simple and workable concept that T. Huxley once commented "How incredibly stupid, not to have thought of that myself"! I know for myself, after having the fundamentals explained, natural selection just made sense and provided a satisfying explanation of the workings of nature. I won't deny the details are complex, but the principle are simple and intuitive.
I understand, but I know that arguments from incredulity abound nonetheless.
I like it, but it is not gospel!
It is the Catholic interpretation of the same Biblical passages other denoms cite. See, we Catholics like to think that if something does not measure up to reality, it can not be possible. Since there is no case of a person receiving an unsolicited visit from Jesus in the middle of the jungle and with no prior knowledge, we do not take the passages about believing in Jesus' name etc. as literal readings.
The bible clearly and unequivocally states that salvation is only through Jesus and only by being born again. If a good Muslim dies without accepting Jesus then they are hell bound per scripture. Hey what is that I just heard... oh ya a chorus's of Amens!
I'm not turning this into Apologetics 101, But 'salvation thru Jesus' can be taken a few ways.
If we are created to worship God (as Riverrat believes), and the God described in the Bible is the one true vision of God, then there would be a detectable tendency for people when approaching God to align their worshiping impulses towards the core beliefs described in the Bible such as a triune Godhead, the necessity for water baptism, the nature of the Holy Spirit, or second coming. There would also be a steady defection from counterfeit religions. There would be a detectable core agreement on a set of Godly principles.
None of this is relevent to what I said about 'being created to worship God'.
I take that to mean that men, just by existing, bring glory to God. I may also believe that the soul has natural urges to worship, or join, with its Maker, but that would only be the catalyst for its searching and varying styles of worship. The soul may yearn all it will, but it is destined for subjugation to what the mind believes.
I just saw all of the OT warnings in this thread. If I tie my comments back to the OP, I will say that if a soul is made to know, love and serve God, then it may be at any moment that the mind chooses to listen to the spirit. Death beds are one moment, but you can't get water from a rock, nor Jesus from Allah. You can only acknowledge that there may be more out there. And no, I am not comparing Muslims to rocks!
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iceage, posted 07-12-2007 7:28 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by iceage, posted 07-16-2007 1:24 PM anastasia has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 6071 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 148 of 183 (410722)
07-17-2007 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by iceage
07-16-2007 1:24 PM


Re: Created to Worship
iceage writes:
...duh! anyone who knows anything about Christianity knows not to take Salvation thru Jesus all that literally and that everyone has a conscience and soul and if they do right they will be saved.. it is all so simple...why can't you get it...
I am sorry. My faith tells me that God will allow for everyone to reach eternal life if they choose. He would not be a just God if He did not, but an unfair petty God. I am not gangin' up with RR, but I thought he was not articulating this idea well, and sort of subconsciously regurgitating it.
When I know that opposite is true. The majority of Christian doctrine, and all very biblically supported, is that folks cannot be saved unless they hear and believe the gospel and accept Jesus. This is the motive behind the Great Commission.
Yes, I know some Christians think that way, or even most. The Catholic church does not teach this.
Back to the point of this thread. RiverRat believes we are created to Worship God - God being Jesus and God of the Bible - not God in the context of other traditions or cultures. So in the end he wonders if people will turn at the end-of-life to Jesus and God of the bible regardless of their prior religion. This is preposterous and and arrogant proclamation.
Not preposterous and arrogant, but it savours of the idea that all are saved, which is not Biblical IMO, and in reality, some will turn to God, and some will turn away, at the moment of death. I don't see why bother with all the free will nonsense if we believe it will be snatched away in the end to make good.
You then seem to try to salvage his position by stating that sure we are created to worship this God but he allows for you just to be a good person and doing the best you can within your context
I am not concerned with 'his position'. I am salvaging the doctrine and presenting it as it was intended.
I don't even believe that this soft all-is-one philosophy is even Catholic doctrine and certainly not protestant doctrine. I am with you on this but the majority of Christian doctrine says this good Muslim goes to hell.
I have done the research. I find my view consistant with Catholic doctrine and the writings of the popes. It is still a subject that gets debated, and I know that my personal take doesn't negate the debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by iceage, posted 07-16-2007 1:24 PM iceage has not replied

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