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Author | Topic: Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Well there's a problem to start off with. I DON'T know God. If there's a real God out there I don't know anything about him/her/it. So there's something badly wrong with your premise.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
You claimed:
quote: I am saying that that is definitely not true. I don't. So your premise is wrong.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I can't think of any, but that is not really analagous. What we need is a situation where I do not even know the idea that I am supposedly resisting. In the incredibly unlikely idea that thee is some sort of God out there I have no idea what it would be like or if it would listen to me (and why would it ?). All I know is things I've been told by other people. I've no "deposit of the Holy Spirit" - and the only people I've come across who claim to tend to use it as an excuse to twist the Bible to make it say what they want - hardly "Holy" behaviour. Jesus' death ? Most likely he was just another wannabe Messiah who caused enough trouble that the Romans executed him But we don't have any reliable accounts so nobody knows what really happened. These things which you say are supposed to make me "know God in our hearts/spirits" do nothing of the sort. The first because it isn't there for me, the second because it's no more meaningful to me than the death of Joseph Smith or even David Koresh - perhaps a little less so since we have better information about the two more recent figures.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
In Message 26
quote: In Message 24quote: Isn't that what you claimed you hadn't said just a couple of posts later ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Well I certainly wasn't "oppressed" or "brainwashed" into atheism. I was raised in a Christian family, my father is a lay preacher (and still taking services even though he's nearly 80). His father was a minister. You can' blame college either since I left the church before going there, when I was facing the prospect of Confirmation. So no, if there was any social pressure on me it was in the other direction.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
To be fair here's the whole paragraph:
quote: It quite clearly says "all", and there's nothing to indicate any exception. Your "clear indication" is clearly not there. All there is, is a vague reference to "taint" which appears to be a reference to your idea of "oppression". Also the fact that it is "just a belief" isn't relevant since it is a premise of your argument. Pointing out that it is untrue is definitely relevant and therefore legitimate comment.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: What does "correctly" mean in this context ? What are you asking for ? They certainly didn't pressure me into thinking that God didn't exist. Nor did Sunday school. Nor the after-church youth group meetings.
quote:Actually I read the Bible and I was smart enough to see that it was pretty seriously inconsistent on the idea of God. I could see that people were people and the church people were just ordinary good people - yes they didn't seem to especially follow some of Jesus teachings but damn few people do - and I'd be surprised if you were one. And then I learned about other religions and they didn't seem to have any worse basis for belief. So I found out it was all built on sand. Just beliefs taken for granted. And if you were right that is exactly what wouldn't happen. It happened because I NEVER had this inner knowledge of God you refer to. quote:What's so important about "knowing good" in that sense ? And how much evil is needed for that ? Can you really argue that every bit of evil in the world is necessary just for "knowing good" ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
OK, I didn't choose not to believe. As I said I came to the realsiation that there was nothing there. No basis for beleif. I came to realise that I'd just taken it for granted and when I knew that I knew that I didn't believe any longer.
And you haven't explained to me how this supposed "deposit of the Holy Spirit" or Jesus' death are suppsoed to give me this suppsoed knowledge. Nor do you really offer an explanation of evil. You don't say why this "appreciation" is worth any evil, let alone the amount that actually exists and has existed in this world. Nor do you offer any quantification even though it is certain that some people suffer much worse than others (I've been fortunate, I know, and only suffered in ways I consider trivial).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Jesus hasn't asked me anything. And the problem with leaps of faith is that they can go in any direction with equal validity. So all you are doing is reducing salvation to a guessing game. The idea that there is a God who cares about what we believe - but wants us to arrive there by guessing is not exactly plausble. And it would be insulting if there were a real God who took a more reasonable attitude. So quite frankly I don't see myself appealing to your God - if I did it would only be the ingrained impulses of my upbringing, not because of any reality behind it or this knowledge which we're supposed to have without knowing it for reasosn you can't or won't explain. And there's no chance that I wuld appeal to Nemesis Juggernaut's God.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I didn't get anything back when I did believe.
quote: I would say that the right thing is not to guess. To care about the truth, not to try to delude yourself into belief. Not to take that leap of faith - because a leap of faith is beleiving in a guess.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Been there, done that. What makes sense to me is that Jesus was what we'd call the leader of a "Doomsday Cult". He failed and died. The apocalypse didn't come. A little more than a guess ? I'd say it's a desparate guess - against the odds and the evidence.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
What I find interesting is the denial of orthodox Christian doctrine. If it all comes down to love and hate then there is no need to adhere to any particular belief.
The only other surprise is that it should be posted by someone who comes across as a worshipper of hatred.
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