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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
PaulK
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Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 4 of 183 (409799)
07-11-2007 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 10:33 AM


quote:
What spawns it, is based on my belief that we were all created to worship God, and that given Jesus's death and the deposit of the Holy Spirit, we all know God, regardless of our religion. So we all know God in our hearts/spirits, it is the world, and religion that taints us.
Well there's a problem to start off with. I DON'T know God. If there's a real God out there I don't know anything about him/her/it. So there's something badly wrong with your premise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 6:29 PM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 16 of 183 (409844)
07-11-2007 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 6:29 PM


You claimed:
quote:
So we all know God in our hearts/spirits
I am saying that that is definitely not true. I don't. So your premise is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 6:29 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:13 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 61 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 9:59 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 34 of 183 (409891)
07-12-2007 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 7:13 PM


quote:
Have you ever had a revelation in life, that exposed something that you knew to be true, but was always oppressed into thinking it wasn't?
I can't think of any, but that is not really analagous. What we need is a situation where I do not even know the idea that I am supposedly resisting. In the incredibly unlikely idea that thee is some sort of God out there I have no idea what it would be like or if it would listen to me (and why would it ?).
All I know is things I've been told by other people. I've no "deposit of the Holy Spirit" - and the only people I've come across who claim to tend to use it as an excuse to twist the Bible to make it say what they want - hardly "Holy" behaviour. Jesus' death ? Most likely he was just another wannabe Messiah who caused enough trouble that the Romans executed him But we don't have any reliable accounts so nobody knows what really happened. These things which you say are supposed to make me "know God in our hearts/spirits" do nothing of the sort. The first because it isn't there for me, the second because it's no more meaningful to me than the death of Joseph Smith or even David Koresh - perhaps a little less so since we have better information about the two more recent figures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:13 PM riVeRraT has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 35 of 183 (409892)
07-12-2007 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 7:17 PM


In Message 26
quote:
I never claimed you, or any atheist was in denial.
I was never in denial.
In Message 24
quote:
Have you ever had a revelation in life, that exposed something that you knew to be true, but was always oppressed into thinking it wasn't?
Isn't that what you claimed you hadn't said just a couple of posts later ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 7:17 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 7:06 PM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 56 of 183 (410058)
07-13-2007 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
07-12-2007 7:06 PM


Well I certainly wasn't "oppressed" or "brainwashed" into atheism. I was raised in a Christian family, my father is a lay preacher (and still taking services even though he's nearly 80). His father was a minister. You can' blame college either since I left the church before going there, when I was facing the prospect of Confirmation. So no, if there was any social pressure on me it was in the other direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 7:06 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:33 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 63 of 183 (410121)
07-13-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 9:59 AM


To be fair here's the whole paragraph:
quote:
What spawns it, is based on my belief that we were all created to worship God, and that given Jesus's death and the deposit of the Holy Spirit, we all know God, regardless of our religion. So we all know God in our hearts/spirits, it is the world, and religion that taints us.
It quite clearly says "all", and there's nothing to indicate any exception. Your "clear indication" is clearly not there. All there is, is a vague reference to "taint" which appears to be a reference to your idea of "oppression".
Also the fact that it is "just a belief" isn't relevant since it is a premise of your argument. Pointing out that it is untrue is definitely relevant and therefore legitimate comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 9:59 AM riVeRraT has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 67 of 183 (410129)
07-13-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 10:33 AM


quote:
Is this supposed to mean that your family or church taught you correctly? That they even get it? (not trying to put your family down)
What does "correctly" mean in this context ? What are you asking for ? They certainly didn't pressure me into thinking that God didn't exist. Nor did Sunday school. Nor the after-church youth group meetings.
quote:
Or does it mean, you were smart enough, and innocent enough at the time (and probably closer to God than all of them) to realize, that it wasn't God that rules those peoples lives?
Actually I read the Bible and I was smart enough to see that it was pretty seriously inconsistent on the idea of God. I could see that people were people and the church people were just ordinary good people - yes they didn't seem to especially follow some of Jesus teachings but damn few people do - and I'd be surprised if you were one. And then I learned about other religions and they didn't seem to have any worse basis for belief. So I found out it was all built on sand. Just beliefs taken for granted. And if you were right that is exactly what wouldn't happen. It happened because I NEVER had this inner knowledge of God you refer to.
quote:
I can clearly see now why God created evil, without it, it seems we could never really know good.
What's so important about "knowing good" in that sense ? And how much evil is needed for that ? Can you really argue that every bit of evil in the world is necessary just for "knowing good" ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:52 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 70 of 183 (410133)
07-13-2007 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 10:52 AM


OK, I didn't choose not to believe. As I said I came to the realsiation that there was nothing there. No basis for beleif. I came to realise that I'd just taken it for granted and when I knew that I knew that I didn't believe any longer.
And you haven't explained to me how this supposed "deposit of the Holy Spirit" or Jesus' death are suppsoed to give me this suppsoed knowledge.
Nor do you really offer an explanation of evil. You don't say why this "appreciation" is worth any evil, let alone the amount that actually exists and has existed in this world. Nor do you offer any quantification even though it is certain that some people suffer much worse than others (I've been fortunate, I know, and only suffered in ways I consider trivial).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 10:48 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 100 of 183 (410340)
07-14-2007 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by riVeRraT
07-14-2007 10:48 AM


quote:
I understand, and what Jesus asks is that you make a leap of faith.
Jesus hasn't asked me anything. And the problem with leaps of faith is that they can go in any direction with equal validity. So all you are doing is reducing salvation to a guessing game. The idea that there is a God who cares about what we believe - but wants us to arrive there by guessing is not exactly plausble. And it would be insulting if there were a real God who took a more reasonable attitude.
So quite frankly I don't see myself appealing to your God - if I did it would only be the ingrained impulses of my upbringing, not because of any reality behind it or this knowledge which we're supposed to have without knowing it for reasosn you can't or won't explain. And there's no chance that I wuld appeal to Nemesis Juggernaut's God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 10:48 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 6:18 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 108 of 183 (410451)
07-15-2007 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by riVeRraT
07-15-2007 6:18 AM


quote:
Until you get something back, then it is much more than faith.
I didn't get anything back when I did believe.
quote:
Guessing?
People often say in this forum "do the right thing."
What is this right thing?
I would say that the right thing is not to guess. To care about the truth, not to try to delude yourself into belief. Not to take that leap of faith - because a leap of faith is beleiving in a guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 6:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 7:10 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 111 of 183 (410454)
07-15-2007 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by riVeRraT
07-15-2007 7:10 AM


quote:
Reading the bible, focusing just on what Jesus says, is a little more than a guess. It makes sense to me.
Been there, done that. What makes sense to me is that Jesus was what we'd call the leader of a "Doomsday Cult". He failed and died. The apocalypse didn't come. A little more than a guess ? I'd say it's a desparate guess - against the odds and the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 7:10 AM riVeRraT has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 123 of 183 (410518)
07-15-2007 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Hyroglyphx
07-15-2007 2:30 PM


Re: The Christian and the conundrum (For Riverrat, but all may respond)
What I find interesting is the denial of orthodox Christian doctrine. If it all comes down to love and hate then there is no need to adhere to any particular belief.
The only other surprise is that it should be posted by someone who comes across as a worshipper of hatred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 2:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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